Author Topic: 2 slot items  (Read 24218 times)

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Offline Darkkarma

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2 slot items
« on: April 13, 2011, 09:31:00 am »
+1
So i'm coming into this a bit late and I was just given the news. Any one wanna tell me what exactly (if anything) this is supposed to fix?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 04:19:49 pm by Darkkarma »
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Offline Vibe

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Re: 2 slot items
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2011, 09:45:38 am »
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Hybrids.

Now I'm outta this thread before flame wars begin.

Offline Erasmas

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Re: 2 slot items
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2011, 09:55:13 am »
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Nothing really. It is just a way to say that upkeep failed.
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Offline MouthnHoof

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Re: 2 slot items
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2011, 10:03:35 am »
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What has this got to do with upkeep?
I consider upkeep the biggest success since the Apollo moon landing.

Offline Erasmas

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Re: 2 slot items
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2011, 10:18:12 am »
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I have nothing against upkeep. It was a good idea overall. Upkeep aim was to limit the possibility to wear heavy armor AND carry top tier weapons. This patch is really aimed to do the same, to limit the possibility to carry top tier weapons of different kinds. If upkeep worked well, there would be an economic limitation to do such things. In this sense it failed. 

If certain weapons require 2 or 3 slots, it means that you cannot build successful hybrid, or sometimes you are not able to build it at all. Decent xbow+shield +1h is impossible, a weak xbow+ decent 1h + decent shield is possible; in other words it is a nerf to sniper/heavy xbow (and warbow, and some throwing stuff), just hidden in an highly unintuitive mechanism.

The truth is, being a hybrid its a trade-off; you have to split points. Bows and Xbows were nerfed once, but after some time it turned out that everyone heirloom their weapons, and so weapons are strong again but  generally armour is weaker than it used to be. Who will benefit? Twohanders, and Shielders. I rarely can one-shot anyone, but it already happens that STR builds with heirloomed 2h can wipe me off with one/two swings.

In addition someone soberly noticed  that it will lead to more ranged camping roofs and running away from melee fights even more than now, all that due to the inability to carry decent melee weapon. All in all the patch will hurt hybrids, obviously, but will also cause undesired effects.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 11:44:44 am by Erasmas »
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Offline Falka

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Re: 2 slot items
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2011, 10:27:37 am »
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What has this got to do with upkeep?
I consider upkeep the biggest success since the Apollo moon landing.
I can't agree more :) But items requiring 2-3 slots... I'm not convinced it's a good idea. It won't hurt my 2her at all, but still...
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Offline Kafein

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Re: 2 slot items
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2011, 10:32:16 am »
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Upkeep has been the biggest fail in game design of the 21st century.

It failed in numerous ways, claiming to be the solution to all the minor problems we had prepatch but in fact upkeep solved nothing as is, and created even bigger problems. The globalized archery spam was regulated through a fine nerf of the damage and accuracy and by removing the wpf bonus of retirement. Nothing to do with the cost of an archer equipment. That was probably the biggest problem we had. In second place we had the "tincans". Also here the problem was certainly not that they wore heavy armors. The real problem was the weapon speed people could acheive thanks to multiple retirements, and the crazy agi and ath values due to grinding to level 40. Give heavy armor to a level 30 without wpf bonuses. He's perfectly fine regarding balance. His speed is fuckslow and he's ganked if his team retreats. The char would be more efficient in combat without the heavy armor, however it helps against ranged units.


What I'm trying to explain is that just like in politics, we had a problem (in my example, lightspeed tincans), and people try to hide the symptoms (upkeep to prevent people from using heavy armors). But the correct solution is to find the source of the problem (extreme agi and wpf were reachable) and correct it in a way it won't change things for non-problematic parts of the mod.

Here we have upkeep, that completly changed cRPG, in the equipment we use, our speed, survivability, the powers of different classes, in the way we fight, why we fight and why we do not fight. A rather brutal change to hide the symptoms of a very simple problem.

Now we can try to fix things a little.



The 2 slots for ranged/2h weapons has been proposed many times, it has nothing to do with upkeep, but it is logically linked with the wpf curve. As investing all your points into one proficiency is highly detrimental, much people are forced into hybridizing (just look around and you see half melee players being part-time noob throwers). To be continued, gtg

Offline Carwen

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Re: 2 slot items
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2011, 11:41:58 am »
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I hope the that the amount of arrows in a stack is increased, as 16 Bodkin Arrows is nearly not enough nor 21 Khergit Arrows

Offline Darkkarma

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Re: 2 slot items
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2011, 12:02:03 pm »
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Upkeep has been the biggest fail in game design of the 21st century.

It failed in numerous ways, claiming to be the solution to all the minor problems we had prepatch but in fact upkeep solved nothing as is, and created even bigger problems. The globalized archery spam was regulated through a fine nerf of the damage and accuracy and by removing the wpf bonus of retirement. Nothing to do with the cost of an archer equipment. That was probably the biggest problem we had. In second place we had the "tincans". Also here the problem was certainly not that they wore heavy armors. The real problem was the weapon speed people could acheive thanks to multiple retirements, and the crazy agi and ath values due to grinding to level 40. Give heavy armor to a level 30 without wpf bonuses. He's perfectly fine regarding balance. His speed is fuckslow and he's ganked if his team retreats. The char would be more efficient in combat without the heavy armor, however it helps against ranged units.


What I'm trying to explain is that just like in politics, we had a problem (in my example, lightspeed tincans), and people try to hide the symptoms (upkeep to prevent people from using heavy armors). But the correct solution is to find the source of the problem (extreme agi and wpf were reachable) and correct it in a way it won't change things for non-problematic parts of the mod.

Here we have upkeep, that completly changed cRPG, in the equipment we use, our speed, survivability, the powers of different classes, in the way we fight, why we fight and why we do not fight. A rather brutal change to hide the symptoms of a very simple problem.

Now we can try to fix things a little.



The 2 slots for ranged/2h weapons has been proposed many times, it has nothing to do with upkeep, but it is logically linked with the wpf curve. As investing all your points into one proficiency is highly detrimental, much people are forced into hybridizing (just look around and you see half melee players being part-time noob throwers). To be continued, gtg

See now I don't buy that for a second. This is going to hurt alot ofdedicated hybrid players such myself. I can respect that they wanted to cut down the major issue of hybrids, (mainly with crossbows and their not so steep wpf requirements) But come on, I mean, as far  as i'm concerned this is going to seriously destroy alot of hybrids and dedicated crossbowmen as well.

I'll be forced to just using a bloody one hander or extremely low end polearm, I mean, as a crossbowman, I can count on going into melee the vast majority of time. I may not be a melee force, but I can at least hold my own. I can't run around and kite guys in a Loki-esque style and , continually hit my targets while on the move. Once I miss and i'm being pursued, i'm going to HAVE to melee assuming I don't 1 hit him or have about 30 feet to work with.  My melee capabilities are going to be hit VERY hard with this patch(not to mention the item I heirloomed for the soul purpose of going with my bow is now effectively useless as far as that is concerned. Simply steepening ranged wpf requirements for xbows would seem to be alot simpler. Better yet, why not make it dependant on powerdraw like bows? It would seriously cut back on the amount of hybrid users as well as not screw over the  dedicated crossbowmen out there.

 A similar skill steepening could be done for throwing so that it's not as practical. I mean, I get it, right now it's not a mater of "should I hybrid" rather than "why shouldn't I hybrid?" But come on, we're not all lance tankmen fighters that can balance out two melee weapons and still have 60 wpf in crossbow and be effective.

All in all, this seems like an extremely short sighted fix.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 12:04:53 pm by Darkkarma »
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Offline Gnjus

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Re: 2 slot items
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2011, 12:19:51 pm »
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In addition someone soberly noticed  that it will lead to more ranged camping roofs and running away from melee fights even more than now, all that due to the inability to carry decent melee weapon. All in all the patch will hurt hybrids, obviously, but will also cause undesired effects.

Removing the ladders from battle servers would solve this issue, nice and swift. They can't outrun the horses.
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Offline Punisher

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Re: 2 slot items
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2011, 12:26:26 pm »
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Siege equipment will take multiple slots as well. If i remember correctly all ladders at least 2 slots, large and siege ladder 3 slots, siege shied 2 slots, construction site 3 slots. So if anything, there will be a lot less roofcamping.

Offline Erasmas

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Re: 2 slot items
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2011, 12:31:40 pm »
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Just remove all ranged from the game, it is a simpler solution, dammit.
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Offline Gnjus

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Re: 2 slot items
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2011, 12:33:04 pm »
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Siege equipment will take multiple slots as well. If i remember correctly all ladders at least 2 slots, large and siege ladder 3 slots, siege shied 2 slots, construction site 3 slots. So if anything, there will be a lot less roofcamping.

Twas about bloody time.  :wink:


Also, @Darkkarma: basically it will force you to stay near your shielding teammate if you want to survive longer, which kinda makes sense. We are fighting medieval battles here, not some "im gonna Rambo everything on my own" medieval unrealistic shooter. At least this mod should thrive to get things done "properly".
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Offline bosco

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Re: 2 slot items
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2011, 12:33:09 pm »
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So if anything, there will be a lot less roofcamping.

This keeps getting better and better.  :mrgreen:

Offline Casimir

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Re: 2 slot items
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2011, 12:35:54 pm »
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Archers taking Flamberges/greatswords/LHB/LSM/Long Mauls

I think archers should be limited in the weaponry they take, unless they invest some points in it.
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