Let's talk about cavalry balance

[Xol!]

Here we can have a nice civil discussion on current cavalry balance issues.  Please feel free to express your opinions, but let's try to keep this focused on the discussion at hand and not bring anyone's mother, race, or sexual orientation into it.

Here's my small list of changes that I've come up with or I've seen posted elsewhere that could potentially help return cavalry's skill curve, rewarding those who are good and penalizing those who bandwagon:

1) Athletics + Riding < Agility/2
Credit to Tomas for this one.  It slaps bandwagoners hybrids right in their ugly faces.  Pure riding players will enjoy a maneuverability and speed advantage over hybrid cavalry.

2) Only Jousting Lance & Great Lance couchable
Credit to Torben and Bjord.  I shouldn't even have to explain this, but I will.
If you're riding up on someone unawares, now you have to hit them in the head to get that nice, juicy one shot.
But... but shields! Bring a bardiche or get a bumpstab/bumpslash.  But... but heavily armored cavalry!  They're heavily armored.  Deal with it.

3) Pop the bubble
Seriously, 99% of the players in the game actually agree on something.  It might actually be worth doing. Note that the other 1% of the playerbase are steel shield plated charger tanks who can still pump their shield skill plenty high to compensate.

4) Increase lance speed drastically and/or shorten the 'hangtime' in the animation
This will be controversial, but hear me out.  This reduces the window lances have to strike.  It will increase the skill ceiling in cav vs cav and cav vs infantry fights dramatically.  Skilled lancers should be able to handle this without a problem, and might even consider it a buff.  Bad lancers will be in a lot of pain.  Yes, it might be harder to block and make the lance more effective on foot, which brings me to my next point.

5) Remove lance overhead attack on foot
This weapon should honestly not be nearly as viable as it is in its current state.  Bring a backup weapon if you plan on doing anything other than half-assed pike support after losing your horse.  This is kind of a pet peeve but I get plenty of kills after being dehorsed on a 12/30 dedicated lancer alt, and I know other players do as well.  It really shouldn't happen that often.

6) Remove horse rearing for pikes and longspears and replace it with a one shot kill
Now, this is probably another one of those controversial things.  I think the horse should just flat out die.  Pikes should be a diamond-hard counter to cavalry.  Don't be stupid and charge a pikeman without a plan.  In an ideal world, the pikeman would need to plant the pike or longspear, but lets not get ahead of ourselves.

7) Fix the horse rearing angle
It is way, way, way too wide.  I have actually been stopped as I rode by a pikeman three feet directly to my right because he stabbed into the thin air in front of my horse.  Any warhorse worth his salt is going to look at that little puny spear pointed away from him and snort with laughter.

8) Buff horse health or armor with riding skill
If your horse is going to get one shotted by a pike or longspear, it better be able to stand up to more than a couple of arrows to the body.  There are actually high strength players running around with more hitpoints (not effective health, actual hitpoints) than some horses.  As an added bonus, this screws over hybrids even harder.  If it's not possible, just buff health on lower tier horses and buff armor on higher tier horses.

9) Fix internal horse balance
Honestly, it's bad.  I could spend an entire post going on about how exactly to do this but it would detract from the points I'm trying to make here.

Note that most of these things that can be construed as a nerf are really targeted towards:
a) bad lancers
b) hybrids
c) the bubble

[Bonze]

If you want some nerfs/balance start with the hitboxes and stupid run and gun gameplay .. then we can talk about cav ..

[Jarlek]

I don't see why we should make only the Jousting/Great Lance couchable. That's the wrong way to do it. Make ALL lances couch only.

[Skyline]

I don't see why we should make only the Jousting/Great Lance couchable. That's the wrong way to do it. Make ALL lances couch only.

and if you hit with out the couch it should be stuck in the target almost like a throwing weapon would be....

[Xol!]

Not to derail my own thread but I'd also be perfectly happy if they buffed infantry instead of nerfing cavalry.

[Jarlek]

and if you hit with out the couch it should be stuck in the target almost like a throwing weapon would be....

Fuck it, add that to ALL pointy weapons! A chance for it to get "stuck" in what you hit. Could work like a debuff sort of thing. You hit someone with a pick/bec/morningstar and your weapon gets stuck in them, making you unable to attack (unless you drop/switch weapon), but also as long as you hold the weapon, the guy having a stuck weapon in him can't attack/block/move (one of them, depending on where you're hit).

This is just a rough idea. I wonder were we could take this

[Rhekimos]

Subject: Let's talk about cavalry balance

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Fixed Subject: Let's talk about nerfing cavalry (again)

Sure, go ahead, but let's at least be honest here.

[Skyline]

Fuck it, add that to ALL pointy weapons! A chance for it to get "stuck" in what you hit. Could work like a debuff sort of thing. You hit someone with a pick/bec/morningstar and your weapon gets stuck in them, making you unable to attack (unless you drop/switch weapon), but also as long as you hold the weapon, the guy having a stuck weapon in him can't attack/block/move (one of them, depending on where you're hit).

This is just a rough idea. I wonder were we could take this

If its a ground thing, you could kick them to pull it out? Something of that sort? Honestly along those lines... wooden handled weapons should take damage like shields... obviously not as extreme as the shield damage but.

[Xol!]

Sure, go ahead, but let's at least be honest here.

Instead of being contradictory and condescending, why don't you talk about what's in my post that shouldn't be, or what isn't in my post that should be?

I'm not claiming to make a perfect suggestion that is the be-all-end-all of cavalry changes, but I think having open discourse is better than sitting in a dimly lit room getting riled up because someone made a post an internet forum about your class in a mod for a medieval combat simulator.

I would much rather cavalry have a similar skill curve and skill ceiling to melee, but right now that's just flat out not the case.  It has a comparatively low skill ceiling, and an unfortunately flat curve.  It is the flat-chested dwarf standing next to the bodacious six-foot-tall Amazon.  Ideally, good cavalry players would be rewarded for their skill, while poor players would be discouraged from picking up five points of riding just for the sake of getting easy kills.

[Mr_Oujamaflip]

I can understand some of these changes. It's not cav thats the problem, it's the number of cav which tends to be due to the learning curve. This isn't going to make cav worse, it's going to make it more specialised.

[Skyline]

I can understand some of these changes. It's not cav thats the problem, it's the number of cav which tends to be due to the learning curve. This isn't going to make cav worse, it's going to make it more specialised.

And it should be....

[Rhekimos]

Instead of being contradictory and condescending, why don't you talk about what's in my post that shouldn't be, or what isn't in my post that should be?

Because it's always the same discussion and arguments about nerfing the same classes, since the birth of cRPG.

I'm not claiming to make a perfect suggestion that is the be-all-end-all of cavalry changes, but I think having open discourse is better than sitting in a dimly lit room getting riled up because someone made a post an internet forum about your class in a mod for a medieval combat simulator.

Is that a rather verbose "u mad"? Damn, well done.

I would much rather cavalry have a similar skill curve and skill ceiling to melee, but right now that's just flat out not the case.  It has a comparatively low skill ceiling, and an unfortunately flat curve.  It is the flat-chested dwarf standing next to the bodacious six-foot-tall Amazon.  Ideally, good cavalry players would be rewarded for their skill, while poor players would be discouraged from picking up five points of riding just for the sake of getting easy kills.

The only solution for making cav hard for "bad players" is to remove backstabbing.

If you have that, I'm all ears.

If not, "easy kills" will always be available to the most maneuverable class, that is cavalry. Unless you turn them into something slower than infantry.

[Skyline]

Because it's always the same discussion and arguments about nerfing the same classes, since the birth of cRPG.

Its the same ol discussion cause the old players in the community are use to something and they dont want it changed. In some cases even abuse the game mechanic being discussed. People want it realistic, yet want it to be "their realistic" not actual reality. Like when stamina is brought up , how horse back proficiency for weapons should be looked into,  turn nurfs, how you can bug hit people through walls with pikes, or many of the other things that come up all the time.... its either they are use to the way things are and dont want the change, or they abuse said problem and dont want it changed because of that.

[Xol!]

Because it's always the same discussion and arguments about nerfing the same classes, since the birth of cRPG.

True, and that's a shame.  What do you think, as a cavalry player, would be the best way to keep people from just adding 5 riding to whatever build they're running to give themselves an advantage?  Let's use an 18/18 two handed/lancer as an example.

To me, it seems like penalizing the player in the infantry-half of build would be one way (ala Athletics + Riding < Agility/2).  Another way would be to make spending points in the infantry-half more attractive.

Perhaps a new set of three mutually exclusive skills could be added, 'Melee Specialization' 'Ranged Specialization' and 'Cavalry Specialization' that gave concrete, but not overpowered, bonuses to dedicated builds, while not specifically nerfing any one class.  Going a hybrid 2h/polearm/cav build instead of sinking 5 points into 'Melee' or 'Cavalry' would put a player at a disadvantage against either.  I suppose it wouldn't directly discourage hybridization, technically, but it might help persuade more players to stay within one class.

The only solution for making cav hard for "bad players" is to remove backstabbing.

If you have that, I'm all ears.

If not, "easy kills" will always be available to the most maneuverable class, that is cavalry. Unless you turn them into something slower than infantry.

To me, cavalry's job is flanking and ambushing.  If you're doing it any other way, you're not playing the class to its highest potential.  However, there's been a wide realization that you don't actually have to be a dedicated horseman to get on a horse and get all the sweet, sweet ambush kills.  You can really be any class, you just have to have enough strength for a lance and enough riding for a horse.  Whatever changes (if any) get made would hopefully hurt these faux-cavalry hybrids, while subtly buffing actual cavalry players.  That's my personal aim with almost every change I've suggested.  Granted, several of those in the OP, if implemented alone, would be absolutely nothing but a nerf to cavalry across the board (see: pikes one shotting horses).

As a side note, and I know it's been beat to death, but it bears mentioning, some of the blame for getting backstabbed by cavalry has to go to the infantry.  Bamboo spears are cheap, take up two slots and can be used with a shield.  There's no reason for a 1h with a shield or a pole/2h without a shield not to take one if your team is getting torn up by cav.   Hopefully everyone knows this by now , but there's also the 'view outfit' key that lets you watch your own back.  Battlefield awareness is the best defense you can have to counter backstabs.

[Rhekimos]

To me, it seems like penalizing the player in the infantry-half of build would be one way (ala Athletics + Riding < Agility/2).

I think this would be a bit bonkers, as I spend half my time on foot (I play a pikeman) and that would ensure that I never dismount. Maybe it would lessen the number of cav, or maybe more people would make a pure cav alt, as many older players already do.

Another way would be to make spending points in the infantry-half more attractive.

I already have 7 ath as cav.

Perhaps a new set of three mutually exclusive skills could be added, 'Melee Specialization' 'Ranged Specialization' and 'Cavalry Specialization' that gave concrete, but not overpowered, bonuses to dedicated builds, while not specifically nerfing any one class.  Going a hybrid 2h/polearm/cav build instead of sinking 5 points into 'Melee' or 'Cavalry' would put a player at a disadvantage against either.  I suppose it wouldn't directly discourage hybridization, technically, but it might help persuade more players to stay within one class.

I think being able to do a lot of things (worse than a pure player, but still) is a great part of cRPG. I'd certainly be sad to see it go.

Also, cRPG would be much more boring.

As a side note, and I know it's been beat to death, but it bears mentioning, some of the blame for getting backstabbed by cavalry has to go to the infantry.  Bamboo spears are cheap, take up two slots and can be used with a shield.  There's no reason for a 1h with a shield or a pole/2h without a shield not to take one if your team is getting torn up by cav.   Hopefully everyone knows this by now , but there's also the 'view outfit' key that lets you watch your own back.  Battlefield awareness is the best defense you can have to counter backstabs.

I couldn't agree more here.

Its the same ol discussion cause the old players in the community are use to something and they dont want it changed.

What? You are giving me a headache.

The same complaints are always up because old players are used to old ways?

Inf is used to ranged being ranged, so they complain about ranged?

What?

In some cases even abuse the game mechanic being discussed. People want it realistic, yet want it to be "their realistic" not actual reality.

What.

or they abuse said problem and dont want it changed because of that.

Or the "abuse" has already been taken into account in balance considerations. Consider the crafty animations in 2h. And since everyone has felt that it's so very OP, there will be zero calls to correct the "fix", before the weapon disappears from the battlefield completely. And some people want that.


Note to self: Stop replying to Skyline as poking holes in his argument only results in -1s from him, and doesn't even carry the discussion anywhere.
On the other hand, who the hell cares.