Repair system

[sF_Guardian]

Look at the topics here and in suggestions corner,
think about what`s valid and what`s not and you see
that 90% shit is maybe a bit over the top but
the majority of the QQ topics is made by
idiots with some kind of "tunnel vision-thinking".
I`m not saying I`m not taking valid stuff seriously,
I just want to say that a lot of QQ stuff sounds
like the author was drunk or has some
different issues.

I just want ppl. to think twice before they start
a topic about balance.

Guess you got smthing wrong, Joker.

[Lichen]

if people keep telling here that DTV is known for being a gold sink, then perhaps you should start checking if there is really something that should be done about it.

Maybe that's actually the devs intention. I've never thought of DTV as the mode to make gold in. It's the mode to get good xp in at the cost of gold.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

Balance the few items that aren't already balanced by something else than cost (Dadao-Highlander Claymore for example) and then remove upkeep, Flameberge ain't the insanely op perfect 2h, Gothic Plate with Beavor isn't "greater" than a Kuyak, the Rus bow doesn't pwn the Horn bow in all ways, and I doubt you can find many people who think plated chargers are particularly great horses.

[Miwiw]

You can't tell. Because the difference whether repairs are too high are too low depends too much on whether you are in a clan or not, whether you are playing start or not, whether you are buying and reselling on the marketplace or not, and whether you are selling your loom points or not. That's why I think the entire upkeep system is horribly broken, but somehow people don't seem to care much. 

I can tell.

Starting a character, you never use 30k worth gear on level 1 do you, gives you about 20k gold easily until level 21. Until that level in the first gen, your waste of gold for upkeep should be zero. In certain levels, gear doesn't make sense. Use the starting gear first.
Doing the first gen without any gold from 20-31 is harder, people tend to buy lots of stuff in the first gen, probably even sell them again to get some money back, therefore doing minus gold. That is their problem though, with x1 straight through a gen it is always possible to play with 10-15k gear worth.

That's light equipment:
Tribal Warriour Outfit worth 1,569 gold (109 upkeep)
Nordic Fighter Helmet worth 1,775 gold (124 upkeep)
Rus Cavalry Boots worth 412 gold (28 upkeep)
Mail Gauntlets worth 2,074 gold (145 upkeep)
That is 31 body armor, 29 leg armor and 34 head armor, enough to survive 2-3 hits depending on the enemy, his stats and weapon and gameplay. Upkeep is low with 406 gold.

There is not much a reason to choose more expensive stuff. Plate is not a must-have, heavy armor neither. No one is forced to use those just to cry about upkeep then. There is a reason why there is a lot of stuff, not only for the looks.

Now depending on you you choose your weapon. As 2h it doesn't have to be a Greatsword, neither a Flamberge for more than 1000 gold upkeep. People choose the best weapons and wonder why they have to pay upkeep.. UUuuuh, think! There is good stuff for low money.Instead for a Danish for nearly 1,2k upkeep, choose a cheaper weapon like Longsword for 466 gold. It can even be cheaper with the Bastard Sword and 280 upkeep.
If you choose a good item, you have to face a higher upkeep. There is so much cheap stuff (money wise) that is good enough.
Same with 1h weapons. People cry about 700 upkeep. HAHA! QQ more, get a similar one for some hundred gold upkeep less, there are so many nice weaons to choose from!

Sure, while playing with clan mates it's often possible to roll x5 for hours. But even today when only I was online for an hour I had only x3 and x4, the team actually only had random people. Same in most situations.
Use the marketplace if you want, your decision.
Sell the loompoints if you want, your decision. You don't even have to retire, then you either grind gold with low upkeep gear or use medium gear.

The whole discussion is useless. There is no reason you get anything for free, anything without effort. New players need some time to get into crpg, during that time they can gather gold to use "better" gear.

I don't even know why answer here, but to be honest if you claim upkeep was too low you don't understand why it exists. There have to be people using cheaper gear, why would that gear exist then? Why would anyone use body armor below Light Kuyak for other reasons than the looks. The stats (weight/armor) of gear around the Kuyaks are best... well anyway, I'm gonna go sleep.

Zlisch is right, compare expensive items with cheaper gear. There are many better choices, as I said before.

Compare Longsword with any Greatsword, you pay more upkeep for some dmg points, some length and maybe the looks. But not more. There are many ways to save money.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

I always say repairs are too low. Only time I lost some gold was with a 60k set up with most parts costing 1k each (and often with 2 stacks of bodkins)....

...And you're a banner stacking Nordmen who will have a multi far more than your average player, and saying that you barely lose gold in plate gear when plate gear isn't that great and repairs therefore should be increased ain't really a good argument for why upkeep should be here in the first place.

[Miwiw]

Oh Zlisch, believe me, I had lots of days with straight x1 for hours (and I still do, that banner does not help that much, only if lots of Nordmen are online). And still I didn't lose any gold during those times, and that with medium - heavy gear.

But your post is good, there are many better choices where lighter gear proves being better than expensive stuff. Plate is not needed, light/medium gear proves being far better, same with horses like destrier/course in comparison to Plated Charger.

[Joker86]

Joker, being melee without a shield, without ranged, and without any protection, on open ground and getting shot to shit by archers means you're doing something wrong.

eing 2hd or polearm means you're doing something wrong? 

Better we remove those classes, before the whining gets out of control

And what people are +'ing is very valid, people ARE doing something wrong, and they want to continue to do that wrong thing, but they want the dev's to make it possible for them to continuing doing what is clearly wrong.

All I want to say is that in many cases people are NOT doing something wrong (because in my eyes being 2hd or polearm is not doing something wrong), and still there is a good reason for complaining. I basically agree with you, that the lack of tactics is causing a lot of problems, but it's not the only or the biggest problem. The incredibly bad designed (= not designed at all) gamemode "battle" with the goal of killing the enemy team is a way bigger issue, for example.

I just want ppl. to think twice before they start
a topic about balance.

Guess you got smthing wrong, Joker.

Might be.

Actually I just wanted to throw in the other side of the medal, that people should also start thinking twice before they start beating the OP of a complaint topic. Even if they never had problems with a certain issue, they should still hold on a second, think about WHY they never had a  problem with a certain issue, and THEN check if you can expect that from everybody.

I know there is a general attitude of complaining, whining and QQing in cRPG, but there is also this attitude of dismissing all complaints as whining.

"+"-ing your post is perfectly okay as long as people don't read it as "If you see a complaint on the forum, the OP is just a bad player and an even worse loser" and start generalizing.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

Oh Zlisch, believe me, I had lots of days with straight x1 for hours (and I still do, that banner does not help that much, only if lots of Nordmen are online). And still I didn't lose any gold during those times, and that with medium - heavy gear.

But your post is good, there are many better choices where lighter gear proves being better than expensive stuff. Plate is not needed, light/medium gear proves being far better, same with horses like destrier/course in comparison to Plated Charger.

So, what's the point of upkeep? Why increase a feature which doesn't really do anything but slightly hurt players who use gear which in many cases is worse than the cheaper gear?

[Miwiw]

I said, IF there was needed to do smth, rather increase the upkeep than lowering it. In total most people still make money by playing rather than losing it for upkeep. That's why all those taxes were introduced. ;)

It is also quite often the fact, that expensive gear costs more upkeep than cheaper gear. That is of course always to the players liking, but most tend to use more expensive gear obviously.

[Joker86]

[...]

I didn't want to start a whole argument with you, and actually I feel sorry I made you write that long post, as I perfectly know what you mean.

My point was actually general critics about the upkeep system. I know you can do very well with mediocre equipment.

But for example, you wrote that ALL equipment should be used. And this is where the upkeep system fails, because actually only the mediocre equipment is valid. The lower upkeep cost for bad equipment doesn't make up for its horrible performance, and the massively higher upkeep cost for high end equipment is not made up by the slightly improved effectivity.

And next to those points, it's also the fact that it is NOT the player's performance alone which determines his equipment, there are a lot of other factors like strategus, clans and trading, which have an impact on it.

I understand the point of restricting equipment, but the upkeep system utterly fails in creating a balanced restriction. Better equipment means higher effectivity, but with the upkeep system you don't balance equipment with effectivity to keep latter on the same level for everybody, you balance it by something secondary, which has no impact on the fighting itself: gold. You fight always the same, never mind if you have 10k gold or 10mil gold. But you fight better with Danish and plate than with Bastard and chainmail.

But this aside, the core of my statement quoting you was, that lowering or increasing the general upkeep cost for equipment (which is always a certain, combined value of currently about 30k (I think) for example) only limits the players on equipment within this cost area, while people who get gold by other sources are completely unaffacted by this change or any equipment restrictions at all.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

I said, IF there was needed to do smth, rather increase the upkeep than lowering it. In total most people still make money by playing rather than losing it for upkeep. That's why all those taxes were introduced. ;)

It is also quite often the fact, that expensive gear costs more upkeep than cheaper gear. That is of course always to the players liking, but most tend to use more expensive gear obviously.

IF there is something that needs to be done regarding upkeep, why would that something not be removing it? Items are nearly 100% balanced without taking cost into condition anyway.

And I apologize but I could not make up the meaning of the bottom sentence.

[Miwiw]

And I apologize but I could not make up the meaning of the bottom sentence.

Ehm, I believe I mean better looking, better stats. Better looking, appearance of the items is of course always depending on the players.

I agree with you Joker in many points.
Example of a plated charger with nearly 5k upkeep is too expensive for its use, is understandable. I tried it quite often, paid 3 out of 10 rounds (which even with x5 can get you broke, you cannot cover its upkeep with normal income)

I wonder what happens if the xp system gets heavily changed. The introduction of the score-systems maybe gives us some hope?

[sF_Guardian]

Might be.

Actually I just wanted to throw in the other side of the medal, that people should also start thinking twice before they start beating the OP of a complaint topic. Even if they never had problems with a certain issue, they should still hold on a second, think about WHY they never had a  problem with a certain issue, and THEN check if you can expect that from everybody.

I know there is a general attitude of complaining, whining and QQing in cRPG, but there is also this attitude of dismissing all complaints as whining.

"+"-ing your post is perfectly okay as long as people don't read it as "If you see a complaint on the forum, the OP is just a bad player and an even worse loser" and start generalizing.

Generalizing is always a bad idea but in this case I dont se any reasonable facts
or other arguments in the OP.
As long as the original poster doesn`t tell facts about his equip and stuff
this thread stays what it is, a worthless whine OP with off-topic discussions below it.

[Joker86]

Generalizing is always a bad idea but in this case I dont se any reasonable facts
or other arguments in the OP.
As long as the original poster doesn`t tell facts about his equip and stuff
this thread stays what it is, a worthless whine OP with off-topic discussions below it.

I just didn't want the post to get quotet mindlessly in other topics where (in difference to here, most likely) it could be out of place due to a reasonable complaint. 

[sF_Guardian]

I just didn't want the post to get quotet mindlessly in other topics where (in difference to here, most likely) it could be out of place due to a reasonable complaint. 

People have to think about their action themselves, neither me nor father Joker can prevent them
from using quotes wrongly ;-)