New rules for class debate

[Lizard_man]

Here's a rule for you, don't tell me what the fuck to do. I'll rage all i fucking want, arrggghhhhhh...

[TurmoilTom]

The comparison doesn't work. Because infantry has to spend spoints in ATH as well, to be able to even attack. And ADDITIONALY to this they need shield skill.

You say that like STR builds aren't the most effective melee class in the mod.

Athletics are far from necessary for melee oriented builds. I did just fine with a 42/3 build with every skill point in power strike and a German Greatsword a few months back. More than "just fine" actually.

[Adamar]

It's far easier to be aware when you play ranged since you are not in the thick of melee

No. Ranged loses a lot of awareness when focusing on targets and timming shots, making them perfect targets for assassins and sneaky cav.

[Gurnisson]

No. Ranged loses a lot of awareness when focusing on targets and timming shots, making them perfect targets for assassins and sneaky cav.

'Ranged' is too vague.

Split it up into xbows, archers and throwers.

Easy to be aware as xbowman, harder as archer, thrower in the middle.

[Taser]

Rules for Ranged:
1. Stop telling melee to get a shield. Especially when archers themselves admit that shields don't make much of a difference to an unsuspecting foe. Ranged don't need to spend points to block melee, so it's pretty much rubbing it in.

Rules for Cav:
1. Stop telling melee to get more awareness. It's very hard to be on the lookout for archers, and cav, and other melee who might be half a second away from striking range. It's far easier to be aware when you play cav and can simply ride away from a tough situation.

I agree with your rules even the ones above but they are valid suggestions. If 2h or polearm are annoyed with archers they can get some shield skill. They don't have to change their build at all if they don't want to but they can get a few points in shield to block arrows if it annoys them enough. Will it work at all times? No but can it help out immensely? Yes. Once again they don't have to change their build but it will definitely help against archers.

And for cav... that is a very valid suggestion since 90% of cav kills are on unaware people. When one's in melee and they get lanced from behind or slashed, it can't be helped since you're locked in melee and shit happens. But for the love of everything unholy, look around and be aware on your way to the melee. On cav maps and some maps that aren't very cav friendly, I often see at least 2 or 3 deaths to cav lancing people from behind as they pay no attention holding w down from spawn.

[Peasant_Woman]

Xbowmen shouldn't be allowed to use the 'get a shield' argument. They have a pretty decent chance to penetrate low tier shields anyway... (the ones a 2h/polearmer with a couple points in shield is likely to use).

[Joker86]

You say that like STR builds aren't the most effective melee class in the mod.

Athletics are far from necessary for melee oriented builds. I did just fine with a 42/3 build with every skill point in power strike and a German Greatsword a few months back. More than "just fine" actually.

But those extreme STR builds are no threat for archers then (no need to level ATH beyond 2?), and they also don't represent the majority. At least not from what I know from EU1.

[owens]

Shield skill is the difference between 5 ath and 8ps and 4 ath and 8ps. Simple as that if you want to min max (we all do) we make sacrifices. I'm not going to sacrifice melee (the reason I play this game) to block your puny arrows. Why would I.

[Smoothrich]

Cav is extremely easy to counter, I played a lot of cav and know their tricks.  As any melee class I go out of my way to bait cav using the outfit key (rebounded to either E or mouse button for accessibility) or if they come head on its very simple to juke.  Just need to backpedal or strafe a bit and their timing will be fucked.  Even easier to juke and thrust directly at the rider to get easy kills.  I can do this with 120 reach 2handers pretty much 90 percent of the time.  I just think lances do too much damage and need to be tuned down.

Ranged being able to 180 shoot so easily when melee can't 180 stab, along with their insane kiting is not a "learn 2 play" problem in my opinion.  Archers should get the same limitation while drawing their bow as melee do while releasing a swing, and bow/arrow weight should be adjusted to be comparable to light infantry classes. 

I did a 15/24 shielder gen in light armor and unless I used a long weapon, spammed, and cut them off, I could get 1 hit in on an archer before they warp speeded out of my reach in half a second.  Also this melee kit means you die in 2 arrows from even unloomed scrub archers if you take flanking fire.

In a lamellar vest on my 2hander?  Every archer and light armored thrower is at least 4 times as fast as me and are impossible to catch, while having insane accuracy and damage. 

Seeing the last people on a team being nothing but archers camping hills that run away the moment you get close spamming piercing rus bow shots is simply awful, map design wise, auto balance wise, and class design wise.

[Dexxtaa]

This is getting stupid. I propose that in order for us to have proper discussions about the current state of classes, we need some new rules because some people sound like a broken fucking record.

Rules for Melee:
1. Stop calling ranged my old friends. It makes you look stupid.

2. Stop complaining that you get kited. It's annoying as fuck, but it makes perfect sense as they are playing to their strengths, while limiting yours.

3. Stop complaining about cav backstabbing you. It's annoying as fuck, but it makes perfect sense as they are playing to their strengths, while limiting yours.

Rules for Ranged:
1. Stop telling melee to get a shield. Especially when archers themselves admit that shields don't make much of a difference to an unsuspecting foe. Ranged don't need to spend points to block melee, so it's pretty much rubbing it in.

2. Stop telling melee to get more awareness. It's very hard to be on the lookout for archers, and cav, and other melee who might be half a second away from striking range. It's far easier to be aware when you play ranged since you are not in the thick of melee

Rules for Cav:
1. Stop telling melee to get more awareness. It's very hard to be on the lookout for archers, and cav, and other melee who might be half a second away from striking range. It's far easier to be aware when you play cav and can simply ride away from a tough situation.

If you think of any, please feel free to add.

For anyone wondering, this man is part of the Remnant. So all you philosophical and level headed clans can piss off, he's already mine!!

Also, melee stop telling other melee to get better. It takes time.

[Tibe]

Run&gun archery is the main reason why most people call archery my old friendgy. I havent heard many people calling archers my old friends in Native, simply cause they acctually are archers and need lots of love and support from teammates.

In Crpg however. I dont recall archers needing lots of teamsupport(some do, most dont). They can be lone wolves. They just use their superior athletics to run to the end of the map and shoot any person trying to get to them with damage equal to the arbalest.

BUT OKAY. Fine! Il stop insulting archers. Its not like we are getting anywere with this pointless complainin anyway and it really does look stupid by now .

[owens]

Archery isn't far of perfect balance wise it would only take a small buff to shields to sought them out.

[Tears of Destiny]

Run&gun archery is the main reason why most people call archery my old friendgy. I havent heard many people calling archers my old friends in Native, simply cause they acctually are archers and need lots of love and support from teammates.

I disagree, in Native they are actually extremely competent by themselves, as my arrows go exactly where I want them to, headshots require all skill and zero luck, arrows hit noticeably hard especially as the average opponent has crappy armor, and if they get close I don't have to run away I can actually melee due to real PS and WPF.

The reason why no one insults archers in native is because they don't have to run away as they can melee very very well despite actually being real archers, unlike c-RPG where if you hybrid there is basically only one viable way to go archer (Like Tenne did with his build) and even then you are piss-poor compared to your native equivalent. It has little to do with needing support from teammates.

Again, I used to actually have a melee archer, but due to multiple particular soft and hard nerfs (For example; the slot system which fixed some issues in this game but caused others) it simply is not worthwhile in my opinion as it is too much of a cripple build unless you basically choose the "one" hybrid option which is still rubbish compared to just going pure melee or pure archer. Hybrids are understandably less powerful then a pure class for a specific set of skills, but they have the advantage of being able to change roles in mid-battle, but this mod punishes archers too much for being hybrids hence why they for the most part just "run."

If this mod can incorporate the native melee/armor abilities that the native archers have (JUST the melee/armor abilities, NOT the laser-guided bullets arrows) then you will see a real drop in runners. Archery as it stands does not need to be nerfed again, archers will still run as long as it is suicide to melee, instead the melee for archers needs to be a real option without a bullshit 0ATHL build or some other such rubbish, and viable armor needs to be available.
Slow down archers slightly, reduce effectiveness versus the 50+ armors, increase accuracy slightly to reduce luck and promote skill, reduce damage output mainly against heavily armored opponents and slightly against mid-line opponents(worth repeating) and keep light armored targets vulnerable, make head armor much more significant against range, make crossbow wpf curve more noticeable to get rid of the 1wpf shotgunners, make shields forcefields actually work against range instead of being "Oh there are exactly 8 shields worth a damn against range" and last but not least give melee/armor buffs to archers.

How I would do it:

If possible make it where the wpf curve for bows is easier then normal (raises WPF faster per point) then normal BUT caps faster (starts sucking up points much much faster then melee, so raises WPF much slower then normal per point) around 140 and maxes near to 170 making additional points extremely impractical to go higher then that, making it even more attractive for the extra points to be spent on something else (melee). Increase bow weight and ammunition weight by a smidge, allow slightly better armor to be worn, and voila you already are allowing archers to melee better then before while encouraging melee and discouraging kiting AND leaving the range ability the hell alone.

Hell, I'll type that out but better detailed in a suggestion thread later.

EDIT: Fixed a lot of stupid typos.

[_JoG_]

I disagree, in Native they are actually extremely competent by themselves, as my arrows go exactly where I want them to, headshots require all skill and zero luck, arrows hit noticeably hard especially as the average opponent has crappy armor, and if they get close I don't have to run away I can actually melee due to real PS and WPF.

Most of Native archer classes have no PS (vaegir, sarranid and khergit archers have 0 PS, and only nords have 2 PS) and no access to nigh-tier weapons, so they often glance even on leather. More importantly, they all have lower athletics than dedicated infantry classes. They also deal less damage than those in cRPG, versus a comparable armor. For example, Native Archers cannot oneshot infantry classes wearing a simple shirt using any combination of bow and arrows.

[Achelous]

i like pie