New rules for class debate

[Turkhammer]

Rules for Melee:
If you bitch about getting hit by ranged you will be told to get a shield and use it.

[Taser]

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Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

    Strength: 24
    Agility: 15

    Skills to attributes: 8

    Ironflesh: 6
    Power Strike: 8
    Shield: 4
    Athletics: 5

    Two Handed: 114

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    Strength: 21
    Agility: 15

    Skills to attributes: 2

    Ironflesh: 7
    Power Strike: 7
    Shield: 5
    Athletics: 5
    Weapon Master: 5

    Two Handed: 148

2 good builds for melee (yes str heavy, I'm NA ) right above without much loss to melee capabilities. The 2nd build can have the WM or IF moved around if you prefer to riding or throwing. Whatever you prefer. Its pretty easy to make a good melee build with shield in it.

For melee, although those with unsheathable weapons it can't be done, its not that hard to bring a shield as backup.

Again they do not have to but the option is there and its pretty easy to make a good build with some points in shield. And the ones I did were with 4 and 5 shield. You can go less if you want more points elsewhere like IF, riding, etc.

This doesn't mean melee must have shields but the option to have one is pretty easily done for melee.

However the same is true for archers.

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Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

    Strength: 18
    Agility: 21

    Skills to attributes: 8

    Power Strike: 5
    Athletics: 5
    Power Draw: 6
    Weapon Master: 7

    Archery: 165

A few less points in ath and you still have the ranged capabilities and some decent PS. The issue with this is that this build is for rus bow and when one takes 2 quivers with the rus... there are no available slots for a melee weapon which is why they have 0 slot weapons. And therein is where the issue lies. The slot issue.

I suppose the argument could be made that if melee gives up points to be able to have a shield to survive ranged, ranged can give up some arrows to be able to have a decent melee backup. This doesn't hold as much water as one might think though since melee can still do what they do best with little handicap once they bring that shield along. Archers giving up half their arrows is quite the disadvantage for archers.

If we could make a decent 0 slot weapon, this might be fixed but I don't think people will go for that. That's why I would support archery wpf having somewhat the same curve as melee so archers can shoot just as well with 120 wpf as they would at 165 which would encourage some archers to put wpf in melee. And they would have a steeper wpf curve so it eats more points after 130 or so, like it does when trying to go from 160 to 170.

Along with more arrows in a quiver or something that would encourage rus/longbow users to take a melee weapon. Or just make the rus/longbow 1 slot which would solve the issue right away. You'd still have kiting archers but with the ability to bring a good melee weapon instead of a hammer, a lot more archers would fight in melee rather than kiting.

[Smoothrich]

It simply isn't fun to suffer the weight penalty on a 2hander who lives or dies on mobility (unless STR plate scrub) of carrying a 90 percent of the time useless shield around. 

Also most archers shoot you while you are engaged or have your model turned somewhere else, where a shield won't even help.  Its a waste of points in most builds unless you are polearms and can hoplite, or have split WPF in 1handers.  Now those are good builds for shield skill, but unless I was 100 percent pure gimmick 2hander build I wouldn't waste shield.

And crazycracka, stop trolling.  Most archers are impossible to catch up with.  I did a 15/24 shielder gen in light armor to hunt ranged, and they all ran away from me at warp speed, almost twice or more as fast as I was.  It was simply ridiculous and never made me want to try light infantry archer hunting again.  It isn't a viable build or playstyle with the speed of ranged players currently, and that IS a balance problem.

[Taser]

One doesn't have to wear the shield everytime but it would be very helpful in situations where you know the other team has 10+ archers and you have none. I realize it does limit mobility and doesn't mean archers scream in vain when they see a shield but it can help you retreat to a better position or hold the flags at end, etc. It just gives you the option to better survive ranged without necessarily guaranteeing it.

The main issue is not that melee should or must have shields. Its the fact that archers kite. The main issue for that is that most archers have 2 slots bows and its usually the rus. Then they carry 2 quivers of arrows because 2 quivers is a good amount and gives you 34 arrows with loomed bodkins and over 50 with loomed normal arrows. They don't want to carry one quiver thus they have no slots for a good melee weapon which makes them want to run away from melee.

That's what it comes down to. Archers want 2 quivers of arrows and I can't blame them for that. But when they usually have the rus bow, it leaves no room for a good melee weapon which makes them not want to fight in melee. So they kite. Solve that somehow by increasing quiver size, reducing bow slots to 1, giving a better 0 slot weapon, etc and you'll see less archers kiting.

[Kafein]

One doesn't have to wear the shield everytime but it would be very helpful in situations where you know the other team has 10+ archers and you have none. I realize it does limit mobility and doesn't mean archers scream in vain when they see a shield but it can help you retreat to a better position or hold the flags at end, etc. It just gives you the option to better survive ranged without necessarily guaranteeing it.

The main issue is not that melee should or must have shields. Its the fact that archers kite. The main issue for that is that most archers have 2 slots bows and its usually the rus. Then they carry 2 quivers of arrows because 2 quivers is a good amount and gives you 34 arrows with loomed bodkins and over 50 with loomed normal arrows. They don't want to carry one quiver thus they have no slots for a good melee weapon which makes them want to run away from melee.

That's what it comes down to. Archers want 2 quivers of arrows and I can't blame them for that. But when they usually have the rus bow, it leaves no room for a good melee weapon which makes them not want to fight in melee. So they kite. Solve that somehow by increasing quiver size, reducing bow slots to 1, giving a better 0 slot weapon, etc and you'll see less archers kiting.

I agree completely, but changes also need to be done about archery wpf and armor, as well as changes that hurt pure archers. Without both rewarding archer hybrids and hurting pure archers, no change is going to happen.

[Smoothrich]

Archers will kite as long as they are able to.  Manly archers with horn bows stand and fight whenever the opportunity arises.  That's how I played archery, that's how Sequel did, Cyranrule does it now (best NA archer), what Kesh used to do with just 1 stack of regular arrows and a Rus Bow.

Giving them more arrows or a better 0 slot weapon means they can kite AND fight better instead of encouraging one or the other.  Its just buffing kiting archers.

What I and countless players have been asking for months now is an increase in bow or quiver weight to make it comparable to melee classes, who suffer inscrutable penalties to weight based on weapon length, general armor penalties, and god forbid you actually have a shield to hunt ranged. 

Feel free to throw in any other buffs there for archers in melee, but the fundamental thing just about every player in the game wants is to reduce the speed of archers running away.  That's all.  If they were slower, light infantry shielders would be able to get into archer nests easier, archers on hills won't be the ultimate cRPG griefing method against melee players, and maybe the last people alive on a team won't be archers 9/10 rounds.

[Taser]

Fair enough. Wouldn't complain if ranged had weight increases to bow/quivers to make them unable to run away as quickly.

[TehSoviet]

I'm tired of cav and I'm tired of shielders and I'm tired of horses and I'm tired of everything

So I bought a flamberge and all my problems disappeared. I just deflect and redirect arrows by the dozens while I chop through three fully plate armored men with each swing. Horses too.