Poll

Team Sizes

3 v 3
2 (4.3%)
5 v 5
8 (17%)
7 v 7
14 (29.8%)
10 v 10
17 (36.2%)
15 v 15
6 (12.8%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Voting closed: April 10, 2011, 12:22:49 am

Author Topic: NA Tourny Poll 2  (Read 7469 times)

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Offline Diomedes

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Re: NA Tourny Poll 2
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2011, 06:02:39 pm »
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There's a difference between "fairly competent" (being able to do ok in pub servers) and being top tier at something.
But you're talking a knowledge vs talent argument, really.

I don't think I am.  It's the same premise that feeds the stereotype that Korean gamers are the best at [everything].  The basis of this isn't a natural talent inherent to the Korean peoples but because they've got the time and single-mindedness to invest over a thousand hours into a video game.

As for the knowledge vs talent, I don't think that's the case either.  One can be very well informed about cRPG gear and stats but still not be very good at playing the game.  Even players who aren't very well informed, in that way, can still be awesome players.  What players do come to know is their own particular build.  How weak their armour is, how fast they move in it with X agility, and what kind of tactics do they need to use against Y players.  When they know that, and are able to use it (i.e. have some skill), then they can play and adapt quite well.  It's this kind of composite skill set that I think a cRPG tournament should be testing.

Offline Rhade

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Re: NA Tourny Poll 2
« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2011, 08:54:49 pm »
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Surely you see mine?

Weapon speeds, lengths, and animations differ in Native and cRPG. These are large factors, and just knowing them is enough to win or lose a duel.

You know Native, and we know cRPG. How hard is that to get?

I've been playing cRPG for less than a month and I'd still be willing to say that because I know native, I can beat 99% of people here in even duels. If you know native, it takes you a few days to learn cRPG's small differences, and if you know cRPG it takes you a few days to know native's differences. You're nit-picking extremely small differences in combat at this point, and a talented player would be able to adjust to them rather quickly.

I don't think I am.  It's the same premise that feeds the stereotype that Korean gamers are the best at [everything].  The basis of this isn't a natural talent inherent to the Korean peoples but because they've got the time and single-mindedness to invest over a thousand hours into a video game.

As for the knowledge vs talent, I don't think that's the case either.  One can be very well informed about cRPG gear and stats but still not be very good at playing the game.  Even players who aren't very well informed, in that way, can still be awesome players.  What players do come to know is their own particular build.  How weak their armour is, how fast they move in it with X agility, and what kind of tactics do they need to use against Y players.  When they know that, and are able to use it (i.e. have some skill), then they can play and adapt quite well.  It's this kind of composite skill set that I think a cRPG tournament should be testing.

Koreans aren't the best at Starcraft because they somehow magically have more hours in a day than us, or all sit at home unemployed more often than us. This is completely unfounded and simply attempting to defend those who fall short and need to lay the blame somewhere else than "maybe I'm just not good enough" and find a scapegoat in the mentality of, "well, if I played as much as he did I'd beat him." Sure, someone who just picked up a game is going to lose more often than not, but I've seen amazing players pick up Warband and join the elite 1% of the community in less than a week, and I've seen players playing since beta that play at least 30 hours a week and they're still absolutely terrible. I can invest thousands of hours into singing, even millions, but I will never be a singer; I do not have the talent, so investing all that time is rather fruitless and a waste. The idea that "if you spend a lot of time, you will be good at x" is completely and utterly false -- sure, you'll be better than when you started, but it's your talent that is going to be the catalyst that determines whether you advance to the elite few in whatever you choose to do, not time invested.

What you're talking about in your second paragraph is simply knowledge. You're highlighting people being glorified number crunchers as the acme of talent and skill that should be tested, as opposed to players being given an even footing and seeing who is able to squeeze the most efficiency and results from the same exact thing the other player is given, which is the true difference of what makes a player good.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 08:57:22 pm by Rhade »

Offline Diomedes

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Re: NA Tourny Poll 2
« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2011, 09:28:55 pm »
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Koreans aren't the best at Starcraft because they somehow magically have more hours in a day than us, or all sit at home unemployed more often than us. This is completely unfounded and simply attempting to defend those who fall short and need to lay the blame somewhere else than "maybe I'm just not good enough" and find a scapegoat in the mentality of, "well, if I played as much as he did I'd beat him." Sure, someone who just picked up a game is going to lose more often than not, but I've seen amazing players pick up Warband and join the elite 1% of the community in less than a week, and I've seen players playing since beta that play at least 30 hours a week and they're still absolutely terrible.

There'll always be players on the fringe.  That's for sure, and the reasons for it are often complex to the point of being almost inscrutable.  I don't think Koreans live on a different planet than us with longer days, or that they're physiologically better equipped to play video games, but that they're part of a different gaming culture.  I was wrong to use them as an example, as it's such an anecdotal case, but I think there's a good point to be salvaged here.  Korean players in many western games, from RTS to MMOs, are often better.  Not all, but enough that there's a common reputation for skill and extreme precision associated with them.  There's obviously something that sets them apart, and it seems absurd to me to attribute this to some sort of inherent quality of a large ethno-cultural group.

Quote
What you're talking about in your second paragraph is simply knowledge. You're highlighting people being glorified number crunchers as the acme of talent and skill that should be tested, as opposed to players being given an even footing and seeing who is able to squeeze the most efficiency and results from the same exact thing the other player is given

It is knowledge, yes, but it's more intuitive than you make it seem.  I find it better described as "tactical skill."  I know to generally run away from axemen but I also trust myself to fight them if they seem to be moving in a certain way.  If they're moving like Leman Russ I gtfo as fast as I can, but if they're moving less fluidly and more predictably than him then can often stand and fight.  I know what I can do with my particular weapons, and what axes can do against my particular armour, and sometimes I can discern something identifiable in the variable that is my opponent's skill.  I don't think this is the pinnacle of Warband expertise, nor should it be considered as such, but it's a unique quality of cRPG combat apart from combat skill.  In Native combat, especially when using the exact same gear and stats as an opponent, it's mostly about standing and fighting till death or victory.  There isn't the same tactical evaluation of personal or interpersonal style and armament as there is in cRPG - and I find that a loss. 

Quote
which is the true difference of what makes a player good.

And this is where we differ.  I think there's more to cRPG than grinding and combat skill.  There's judgement, and tactical deception.  HarmlessPeasant can beat me as a peasant even if I'm in Goretooth's gear, but I can beat many other skilled players with my hammer.  It's not just because my hammer is awesome, though it is, it's because I'm familiar with the eccentricities of the hammer and they're not.  Were I fighting in Native this balancing between known vs unknown quantities would be lost.  In these tactical decisions I see another kind of skill that isn't present in Native.  So yes, it is about what you know, but I think it's unfair to say it's just about what you know and not how you use it to your advantage.

P.S.  I talked to some of the tournament organizers recently and I think they've decided to host the matches in cRPG servers.

Offline Kalam

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Re: NA Tourny Poll 2
« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2011, 01:53:44 pm »
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You should check this out, Rhade.

Offline ManOfWar

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Re: NA Tourny Poll 2
« Reply #49 on: April 15, 2011, 04:49:11 am »
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Once again I am forced to use this-
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


somebody post a summary
Just a soldier

Offline Huey Newton

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Re: NA Tourny Poll 2
« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2011, 05:35:35 am »
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Once again I am forced to use this-
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


somebody post a summary

dont pretend like u didnt read all that...

lol

Offline Rhade

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Re: NA Tourny Poll 2
« Reply #51 on: April 15, 2011, 07:53:41 am »
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You should check this out, Rhade.

And I can go find some other studies proving otherwise?

You really think that anyone can become elite at something simply by working consistenly at it?

No matter what I do, I will never be a professional singer, I am absolutely terrible at it and I have certain traits about me that block me from being professional at it.

Offline Diomedes

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Re: NA Tourny Poll 2
« Reply #52 on: April 15, 2011, 08:49:41 am »
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No matter what I do, I will never be a professional singer, I am absolutely terrible at it and I have certain traits about me that block me from being professional at it.

Most professional singers have years of vocal training and practice under their belts.  Perhaps what's stopping you is just your attitude.