Communism? You'r thoughts?

[Adamar]

communism is fine for poor countries to improve themselves to the others' level,

You're missing the point, communist countries are poor because theres no reason for a single citizen to work more if they all get the same reward. That's why it doesn't work. Now in democratic or 'imperialistic' coutries, people have the freedom and the tools to do whatever they want in life, this is what fuels their economy.

[Abay]

You're missing the point, communist countries are poor because theres no reason for a single citizen to work more if they all get the same reward. That's why it doesn't work. Now in democratic or 'imperialistic' coutries, people have the freedom and the tools to do whatever they want in life, this is what fuels their economy.

Well, we are talkin about 60-70 years a human life. Working somewhere is harmless thing for people. All nation works for production cos they dont want to exploit another country and people in communism. Also I must say that if all nation works in the country, people live in there can retire with 15 years full work and live fine until his death! Imperialism and other ideologies have positivities for human but it is a choise. I can say a negativity for imperialism(maybe more than one) whole africa, syria, arabia, india, vietnam, afghanistan, iraq...

But with this conversation style, we cannot select a point for our lives. We have to find the key of our lives, how we like to live, etc...

So, this thread is endless like my politic talks with my friends until morning sun 


Edit: Some guys in America always attack chocolate chip cookies but why dont they ask that WHERE einstein FOUND THE OIL when he were fighting against all of us? Might it be Rockefeller or is there an oil source in germany we dont know yet? If you guys want you to be more wise, you must ask the question ''why'' more!

[Smoothrich]

oh dear god, please do not turn this into a "fuck america" thread. Ya'll realize that if it weren't for american democracy and capitalism that most of the world would be living under a chocolate chip cookie or stalinistic totalitarian regime? Yeah smooth, we ain't perfect. Show me a country that is and we can all move there. In the meantime though, why don't you and everyone else quit thinking you have some sort of right to endlessly bitch about the country that has pulled the rest of the world from the brink of chaos multiple times. Instead, why don't you, just once, consider being grateful for all the shit that we've done for you.

Actually the Stalinistic regime pretty much single handedly obliterated Germany to win WW2 in Europe, and I do not recall the Soviets ever threatening to invade western europe or taking over the world or anything like that.  If anything, they were invaded by the West over and over and over, including America supporting the Whites in their Civil War, and just had 1/5 of their entire population wiped out in WW2 by their lovely western neighbor.  In fact, America was the one that used the rhetoric "WE MUST STOP COMMUNIST EXPANSION!" to go around overthrowing democracy in South/Central America, Asia, and the Middle East for the past 60 years, installing pro-west ($$$) dictators who stripped away the civil rights and individual/economic liberty of their people more often then not.  All simply to fulfil business contracts with the military and energy industries, while fueling it all by attempting to brainwash American citizens with anti-soviet/communist hysteria.

This cycle of greed being fueled by hate leading to domestic paranoia and ignorance can be shown by 1950's American Senator, Joseph McCarthy, recreating the Salem Witch Trials by ruining the lives of countless innocents claiming them to be communist spies.  And that tradition lives on today as recently as 2 weeks ago, with Congresswoman Michele Bachmann now claiming doing the same but replacing Communist with Muslim.

Next you will be telling me America in the 21st century, is keeping the world safe  not anymore from The Evil Eastern European, but from The Evil Sand friends (and mexicans too) thus we all owe America everything and have no place to criticize shortsighted or simply cruel and selfish domestic and foreign policy?

Ironically that great era you speak of, where America bounced back from the Great Depression to become a leader on the world stage, a number one investor/creditor to Europe and the rest of the world, and a beacon of technological progress and economic prosperity.. funny enough this was all during and immediately after the era of FDR, a 4 term president who was the closest to a Social-Democrat we've had, despite being a bit of a dick and the New Deal having its own set of problems.  But it was the right track, and since Nixon, and most devastatingly, Ronald Reagan's administration, America has been fucked and is being destroyed from the top by entrenched elite, namely the "one percent" that surrounded the Occupy Wall Street movement.  Of which I was a proud participant.

Also, you say: "In the meantime though, why don't you and everyone else quit thinking you have some sort of right to endlessly bitch about the country that has pulled the rest of the world from the brink of chaos multiple times.  " In the meantime though, why don't you and everyone else quit thinking you have some sort of right to endlessly bitch "

Funny, I guess I thought the point of democracy was a government held accountable by its people?  Though I guess a system where citizens have no right to protest the actions of their leaders, while putting full confidence, faith, and love into their nation and holding nothing but pride and enthusiasm for military achievements with a focus on conquest and expansion.. boy what could be more American then that?  I guess the chocolate chip cookies really did have the right idea in your eyes.

[Arathian]

After a deep research on fox news, I can confirm albert "gas em" the einstein was a communist.

[Smoothrich]

You're missing the point, communist countries are poor because theres no reason for a single citizen to work more if they all get the same reward. That's why it doesn't work. Now in democratic or 'imperialistic' coutries, people have the freedom and the tools to do whatever they want in life, this is what fuels their economy.

So this is why "communist countries are poor"?  Can you cite your sources, please?  Give examples?

Does this mean that poor people shouldn't be entitled to welfare benefits either, because then they would have no incentive to improve their lives?  Because some people really believe this, even if tens of thousands of people die annually due to no healthcare insurance in America alone, and economic recession fueled by the reckless selfishness of banks and businesses has left millions unemployed.

[Seadle]

I miss the old goon Smoonthrich...   

[Arathian]

So this is why "communist countries are poor"?  Can you cite your sources, please?  Give examples?

Does this mean that poor people shouldn't be entitled to welfare benefits either, because then they would have no incentive to improve their lives?  Because some people really believe this, even if tens of thousands of people die annually due to no healthcare insurance in America alone, and economic recession fueled by the reckless selfishness of banks and businesses has left millions unemployed.

Let's put it this way:

Communism has always resulted to countries being shitholes, no exceptions.
Capitalism has resulted in some countries being shitholes, mostly countries being rediculusly rich, more so than at any point in their past history.
Some times the same countries, divided by 2, end up shitholes on the communist part, but super rich on the capitalist part (n. Korea vs S. Korea, West vs East Germany, Hong Kong vs pre-90's China etc)

Ergo

Communism creates shitholes.

There's your citation. When all the results of communism is "the country is shithole" the weight of evidence that communism doesn't ALWAYS produces shitholes falls on you.

You need to prove me why communism isn't a failure. I can just point at examples.

[MrShine]

Infamy whore

[Arathian]

Infamy whore

It is you that wants to keep the ban on Panos

 

[Smoothrich]

Let's put it this way:

Communism has always resulted to countries being shitholes, no exceptions.
Capitalism has resulted in some countries being shitholes, mostly countries being rediculusly rich, more so than at any point in their past history.
Some times the same countries, divided by 2, end up shitholes on the communist part, but super rich on the capitalist part (n. Korea vs S. Korea, West vs East Germany, Hong Kong vs pre-90's China etc)

Actually, North Korea was wildly successful compared to South Korea until the 70s, under state directed economic development.  South Korea was one of the poorest nations in the world while North Korea saw amazing success, until South Korea started integrating more into a globalized economy, while North Korea suffered isolationism and mismanagement. 

Economics and social policy can't be trivialized into "being given equal opportunities will make everyone lazy" and using that argument as the crux of anti-communism is just silly.  Its also a terrible strawman used to argue against social support networks like unemployment, nationalized healthcare, unions, workers rights and child labor laws, and so on.  E.g. "welfare queens."

And its funny when you say capitalism can make countries ridiculously rich, when usually its just a very very select few being ridiculously rich, while millions are born poor and die poor with little chance to do anything about it regardless of the GDP and low low corporate tax rates.  Most frustratingly in America is how the amazingly rich can get away with paying less taxes then middle and lower class families due to exploiting the self-serving system (laws by the rich for the rich campaign donors).  Its to the point in some American cities that they literally can no longer afford fire or police departments, and the mere suggestion of raising or reforming tax so the successes of the few can help the many will make you unelectable.

Complete state control of economic development of course ends in failure, but the main point I want to make in this thread is that free-market capitalism should be tempered with social justice and equality in order to create an ideal society.  Businesses have the right to make money, but every person should have the right to fair living wages, health care, and citizenship.  These things should not be mutually exclusive.  In many Americans' eyes however, it is.

[Farrix]

So does anyone else notice the pattern in smooth's post of picking and choosing only the facts that support his opinions while dismissing and denigrating any point that is in conflict with his opinion? This is typical of modern politics. Rather sad really. Let me go ahead and clarify the other side of a few of his posts just so that you, the reader, can recieve a relatively balanced view of the topics in discussion.

First off: The soviets were able to survive and defeat the germans only because the germans had to fight a two front war (three if you count africa). If america had not invaded chocolate chip cookie held europe then it is my supposition that the germans would have had a much easier time supplying their eastern army with the food and weapons whose lack there-of was the primary cause of their eastern defeat. If they didn't have to worry about the americans, they would have been able to fully invest in the russian war effort and moscow would have fallen.

Secondly: Mccarthy was censured in 1954 by an overwhelming majority in congress. He was a senator for something like 3 years. But yet you continue to assert that any patriot is automatically a racist. "Sand friend"...Really man? You do know that talking heads exist on the liberal side of politics as well as the conservatives right?

You say FDR was a 4 term president as if you are trying to imply that some form of long-term power-block is preferable to democracy. Yes FDR was a 4 term president. He served as president for 12 years. I agree with you about the 1% issue. Many scholars assert that corporate greed is what led to the great depression and I would tend to agree.

What really pisses me off about your post is the fact that you quote my statement about endless bitching without including or even referencing the absolute key statement at the end of my post that clarifies the entire statement which you quoted. Then after completely corrupting the entire purpose of my post, you continue by basically calling me a chocolate chip cookie sympathizer. WTF man? Are you intentionally ignoring my posts, such as the one saying that we as a country don't put on the blinders and perhaps we should accept some of our flaws and not expect perfection from ourselves or our country.

Man, you took my posts and instead of actually considering the points that were present in them, decided to use them as an avenue to present your opinions to the community instead of actually engaging in a debate.

The quality of your post is rather depressing.

[sF_Guardian]

yeah your absolutely right, we aren't innocent virgins. We are the most powerful country in the world and we've used that power to benefit our countrymen without murdering millions of minorities/religious groups. Looking at the history of the world and the history of the most powerful nations in the world's past, I'd say that's a pretty damn good accomplishment.

I'm proud of this country, I'm proud of our accomplishments, and I'm proud that we do not force our populace to put on the blinders and that we accept our flaws and are still able to maintain a sense of morality and consciousness despite having the power to force our will on the rest of the world.

You`re talking about "we". At what point YOU contributed to it (despite the fact that your opinion is err...pretty patriotic.. )

[HardRice]

This actually invoked an intelligent(I guess.) discussion, +1 for that, Gomer.

[Arathian]

Actually, North Korea was wildly successful compared to South Korea until the 70s, under state directed economic development.  South Korea was one of the poorest nations in the world while North Korea saw amazing success, until South Korea started integrating more into a globalized economy, while North Korea suffered isolationism and mismanagement. 

Economics and social policy can't be trivialized into "being given equal opportunities will make everyone lazy" and using that argument as the crux of anti-communism is just silly.  Its also a terrible strawman used to argue against social support networks like unemployment, nationalized healthcare, unions, workers rights and child labor laws, and so on.  E.g. "welfare queens."

And its funny when you say capitalism can make countries ridiculously rich, when usually its just a very very select few being ridiculously rich, while millions are born poor and die poor with little chance to do anything about it regardless of the GDP and low low corporate tax rates.  Most frustratingly in America is how the amazingly rich can get away with paying less taxes then middle and lower class families due to exploiting the self-serving system (laws by the rich for the rich campaign donors).  Its to the point in some American cities that they literally can no longer afford fire or police departments, and the mere suggestion of raising or reforming tax so the successes of the few can help the many will make you unelectable.

Complete state control of economic development of course ends in failure, but the main point I want to make in this thread is that free-market capitalism should be tempered with social justice and equality in order to create an ideal society.  Businesses have the right to make money, but every person should have the right to fair living wages, health care, and citizenship.  These things should not be mutually exclusive.  In many Americans' eyes however, it is.

2 things:

1) the majority of the world (by population) is far richer than 100 years go. So no, the majority isn't "millions are born poor and die poor with little chance to do anything about it regardless of the GDP and low low corporate tax rates" In fact, quite the opposite. The Chinese were starving to death 50 years ago. Today, while not the richest people, are definitevely not chewing on trees to survive. That is 1.000.000 right there saved by bad, evil capitalism and capitalist trade.

2) South Korea was NOT unsuccessful until the 70's. In fact, it was quite successful, although not as much as when it embraced neo-liberal capitalism (why do you even use that arguement? It doesn't work in your favor). And north Korea, by the % of their GDP, was the single most subsidized communist country by the USSR. Almost all of their projects were funded by the USSR and were COMPLETELY useless. The towering Hotels one sees there (that nobody uses) were from the USSR. And even then there were extreme food shortages. This is completely obvious when one looks at the complete economic meltdown when the subsidies stopped in the 90's.


edit: also, shouldn't this be on off-topic or something?

[Farrix]

You`re talking about "we". At what point YOU contributed to it (despite the fact that your opinion is err...pretty patriotic.. )

I would have joined the marines out of high school if I could have. Sadly enough I've been a type1 diabetic since I was 8 and that option was taken from me accordingly. My father was a sergeant in the green berets during vietnam and my grandfather a private in the italian campaign during WWII. My family has greatly contributed to this country and I have contributed in a small way by applying (waiting for a response) to the peace corps and assisting my community in a small way through the masons. Please don't question my contributions. I consider myself a very supportive and patriotic american and I believe my actions have gone towards proving this.