Let's Expand on the New Point System!

[MrShine]

For Reference:

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Current system:

- take the damage dealt
- cap it by what HP the enemy has left
- divide by 10, round down
- if it is a horse and has a rider divide by 5,
- if it is a horse without rider set to 0
- if it's a teammate multiply by -2
- if you hurt yourself * -1
- give this score to the one who did the damage
- divide score by 2
- give to everyone within 3m that is an enemy of the one who was hit

I think most people agree the new point system is good.  I also think most people agree the point system needs some work.  I'm hoping some changes could be made in order to reward hunting priority targets, and to reduce the points gained from peasant slaughtering (which needs no further incentive).  I'm also hoping that the system can reward hits that appear to be a part of good teamwork.

Here's my suggestion for how points should work:

Standard Points!

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Score a kill: +2 points
Score a hit that leads to death (enemy dies within the next second): +1 point
Score a (regular) hit: DMG dealt/10,  not exceeding the target's hp.
Score a TK: -2 points
Score a teamwound that leads to death (teammate dies within the next second): -1 point
Score a (regular) teamwound: DMG dealt/10, not exceeding the target's hp.

Point Multipliers!

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50% point reduction when dealt to someone under level 25 (peasant hunting)
75% point reduction when dealt to a mount that is being ridden (team owned or otherwise)
25% point boost when dealt to someone above level 31
25% point boost when dealt to an enemy in the top 10th percentile.  Note: (I'm assuming that there may be a shift from displaying KDR to displaying an average PPR [Points Per Round], and therefore I think that high point scorers should be considered priority targets, and therefore killing/wounding a priority target tends to help your team more than killing a random peasant, therefore should be worth more points.  Therefore, therefore, therefore.)

Siege Specific!

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Open a gate: +1 point
Close a gate: -1 point
Damage a door: +1 point for x damage (x being whatever ~half a doors hp is)
Raise a ladder: +1 point
Lower a ladder: -1 point
Push a siege tower: +1 point every 30 seconds
Kill an enemy within flag radius: +1 point
Assault flag: +1 point every 5 seconds flag is lowered

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Open a gate: -1 point
Close a gate: +1 point (that way if someone is legitimately opening a gate to let cav out, they can get the point back by closing it again)
Raise a ladder: -1 point
Lower a ladder: +1 point
Kill an enemy within flag radius (but double the radius so defenders fighting around the flag are rewarded): +1 point
Kill an enemy within radius of a ladder, gate control, or siege tower: +1 point

So let's look at a few examples and how the points would play out.

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An Archer damages 1 peasant for 10 damage, and one regular for 20 damage, which immediately leads to their death by a teammate.  A courser is also fully killed.

Points gained:
Peasant 1: .5 points (1 point for the damage, cut in half since it was a peasant)
Regular guy: 3 points (2 points for damage, +1 for the assist kill)
Horse Killed: 2.5 points (10 points for damage, reduced 75% since it's a mount)

TOTAL POINTS GAINED THAT ROUND: 6

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A melee player goes on a murder rampage.  120 damage is dealt to 3 peasants, killing all 3.  20 damage is dealt to a regular guy, killing him.  5 damage is dealt to a level 32 'hero', stealing the killing blow.  A teammate is hit once, taking 20 damage and leading to death immediately after.  Oops.

Points gained:
3 Peasants: 6 points (12 points for damage, reduced by 50% for being peasants)
Regular guy: 4 points (2 points for damage, +2 for killing blow)
Hero: 3.75 points (.5 points for damage, +2 for killing blow, then increased by 25% for being level 32, and another 25% for being a 'hero)
Team Damage: -3 points (-2 for the damage, -1 for causing the following death)

TOTAL POINTS FOR THE ROUND: 10.75 (11)

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A kamikaze joe cav couches an enemy hero (level 30) for 70 hp, killing him and immediately dieing afterwards.

Points gained:
Enemy hero: 11.25 points (7 points for damage, +2 for killing blow, increased by 25% for killing a 'hero')

TOTAL POINTS FOR THE ROUND: 11.25 (11)

So that's it. I'm interested in feedback & suggestions.  I think a lot of the current system would mesh pretty well, but I would scrap most of the radius point gaining in favor of more assist-oriented points (especially when it comes to battle).
Anyone have problems with my numbers or think it doesn't represent things accurately?
 

I made a few tweaks thanks to Elindor & Diggles (and others!)

[Elindor]

Shine i'd be interested to see what you thought about points for objective gameplay in siege and/or strat.

+ points for defending or capping flag
+ points for opening gate on offense
+ points for closing gate on defense
- points for opening gate on DEFENSE (LOTS of negative points, lol)
- for closing gate on offense
+ points for pushing siege towers?

Stuff like that.
Maybe something to do with ladders too.

[Riddaren]

50% point reduction when dealt to someone under level 25 (peasant hunting)
25% point boost when dealt to someone above level 31

No reason to set it at 50% below a certain level or at 25% above another.
You already have the exact level of the one getting hit (and also the one who hits so you could actually make it relative as well).
Just bring those levels straight into the formula. The calculation will probably even be be faster that way (without IF statements).

[Digglez]

Dont need to change formula for teamhits, as dmg is already reduced by 50%

Also, lose the 75% reduction for horse killing.  Horses are a huge threat and should be rewarded by killing them or taking the time to damage them.
A spearman killing 2-3 horses is far more valuable than some 2h hero killing a few peasants or average players.

[Tears of Destiny]

For comparison's sake for any who missed it:

Current system:

- take the damage dealt
- cap it by what HP the enemy has left
- divide by 10, round down
- if it is a horse and has a rider divide by 5,
- if it is a horse without rider set to 0
- if it's a teammate multiply by -2
- if you hurt yourself * -1
- give this score to the one who did the damage
- divide score by 2
- give to everyone within 3m that is an enemy of the one who was hit

[seddrik]

cap it by what HP the enemy has left

Yeah Ive notice this.  I can kill 6 people and have barely 10 points.  Hit one friendly who jumps in the way and suddenly have -20 points or hit one guy who lives and have 25 points.  And killing peasants... thats ur big "cash" points.  Top the board by avoiding armored guys and jacking the peasants.  But, over all, capping the final blow actually penalizes those who kill enemies. 

Also, the names now bleed over all this... info/score info and make it look a mess.

Prefer the list to be based on kills anywa, even if the new data is kept.

[MrShine]

Shine i'd be interested to see what you thought about points for objective gameplay in siege and/or strat.

+ points for defending or capping flag
+ points for opening gate on offense
+ points for closing gate on defense
- points for opening gate on DEFENSE (LOTS of negative points, lol)
- for closing gate on offense
+ points for pushing siege towers?

Stuff like that.
Maybe something to do with ladders too.

I have a harder time thinking about how points would work for siege, because (in my mind) the goal of rewarding points is to reward behavior that helps your team win.  In battle that's easy -> kills and damage = better chance for your team to win.  However in siege.. I dunno.  If there is 1 minute left on a map it ISN'T helping your team to win by pushing a siege tower, or even in some cases spending the time to try to open a gate.  However I do think that that is the general idea that it should focus on, so maybe it would be worth implementing and see how it shakes out.

I'd propose:
Siege Attacker!

Open a gate: +1 point
Close a gate: -1 point
Damage a door: +1 point for x damage (x being whatever ~half a doors hp is)
Raise a ladder: +1 point
Lower a ladder: -1 point
Push a siege tower: +1 point every 30 seconds
Kill an enemy within flag radius: +1 point
Assault flag: +1 point every 5 seconds flag is lowered

Siege Defender!

Open a gate: -1 point
Close a gate: +1 point (that way if someone is legitimately opening a gate to let cav out, they can get the point back by closing it again)
Raise a ladder: -1 point
Lower a ladder: +1 point
Kill an enemy within flag radius (but double the radius so defenders fighting around the flag are rewarded): +1 point
Kill an enemy within radius of a ladder, gate control, or siege tower: +1 point

In the areas where you can get points for killing, I think the same rules I have above with points for damage (and team wounding) should apply. 

I'll add this to my OP

Dont need to change formula for teamhits, as dmg is already reduced by 50%

Also, lose the 75% reduction for horse killing.  Horses are a huge threat and should be rewarded by killing them or taking the time to damage them.
A spearman killing 2-3 horses is far more valuable than some 2h hero killing a few peasants or average players.

I agree that the teamhit formula should be changed as you mentioned, I'll update the OP.

I don't agree with your suggestion about changing horse point reduction.  If no reduction is given people could earn anywhere from 8.5 - 15 points per horse kill, which is far too much IMO considering speed bonus and leg hits which can take many horses out in a couple swings. 75% might be a tad high, but 50% feels too low for me.

No reason to set it at 50% below a certain level or at 25% above another.
You already have the exact level of the one getting hit (and also the one who hits so you could actually make it relative as well).
Just bring those levels straight into the formula. The calculation will probably even be be faster that way (without IF statements).

I'm bad at maths, but I do like the idea of getting points based on relative level compared to your foe.  The problem I have with this is it would ultimately punish the higher leveled players, since they would generally be fighting people lower than them.  Maybe if the threshold would be you earn normal points with people +- 5 levels from you, that would mean level 30's get full points against level 25-35, while a level 35 would mostly just get full points from other 30s. 

For comparison's sake for any who missed it:

Yeah, I feel like I'm pretty much in line with what chadz has implemented regarding damage dealt & horse damage. I don't think that team damage deserves to be multiplied, and I personally want to get away from the radius thing in battle since it rewards people for being near good players but not actually contributing (something I think my 'assist' suggestion does better at).  In fact I would say that being near teammates (specifically right behind them) generally hurts more than it helps. 

I'll add chadz's current system to the OP for a truly monstrous behemoth that no-one will read.

[Bulzur]

The "give half of the point to every ennemy of the wounded in a 3m range" doesn't seem like a great idea :

-it favours leeching. People sticking close to good teammates, sometimes getting inbetween the swings (overhead bouncing off the teammate's shield, sideswings hitting the teammate instead of the ennemy, etc...)
-it favours clusterfucks and mindless charge ("damn, all the team seems to go in the open plains, even if we have a beautiful hill, range superiority, while they have cav superiority and we lack pikeman... Bah, let's stick to them, for the score." thinks 75% of the team, following 25% of mindless chargers)
-it's okay for cav, since the bump resulting in a death can happen before the cav hits the 3m mark (then again, with a courser, that's not so sure)
-it's terrible for range who can only count on themselves and the damage they deal to score points.



I know you wanted to reward the people who :
-blocked the ennemy, allowing a teammate to backstab him
-give a fearfull aura, causing panic (noooo, not Teeth, go away !)
-force you to block (pikeman, longspear, attack holders)

But what happens to the range that :
-shoot the ennemy just before he finishes his swing, wich would have killed you, saving your life
-shoot the ennemy just before he'd have blocked your swing, enabling you a free hit (sometimes kill)
-finish off that horse, making the coucher fall in a groupe of allies, before killing any of them, your teammates killing him easily, and ALL gaining points for "just being there", while the range contemplates his 2-4 points for finishing the horse.

What happens to the ninja :
-who takes a while to go all around all alone, to kill thoses 2 far away excellent range that were shooting hell on your troops.

What happens to the cav :
-who decide to risk his life and go after other cavs, on the other side of the battlefield. Sometimes killing two ennemies just before being dehorsed and abandonned.


Apart from thoses points, the system seems okay.

[zagibu]

Most urgent need is style points. Wearing a Kuyak = -10 points per second.

Also, teamhit has to be changed so that teamhitting Grey clan members always increases your points.

[MrShine]

The "give half of the point to every ennemy of the wounded in a 3m range" doesn't seem like a great idea :

-it favours leeching. People sticking close to good teammates, sometimes getting inbetween the swings (overhead bouncing off the teammate's shield, sideswings hitting the teammate instead of the ennemy, etc...)
-it favours clusterfucks and mindless charge ("damn, all the team seems to go in the open plains, even if we have a beautiful hill, range superiority, while they have cav superiority and we lack pikeman... Bah, let's stick to them, for the score." thinks 75% of the team, following 25% of mindless chargers)
-it's okay for cav, since the bump resulting in a death can happen before the cav hits the 3m mark (then again, with a courser, that's not so sure)
-it's terrible for range who can only count on themselves and the damage they deal to score points.



I know you wanted to reward the people who :
-blocked the ennemy, allowing a teammate to backstab him
-give a fearfull aura, causing panic (noooo, not Teeth, go away !)
-force you to block (pikeman, longspear, attack holders)

But what happens to the range that :
-shoot the ennemy just before he finishes his swing, wich would have killed you, saving your life
-shoot the ennemy just before he'd have blocked your swing, enabling you a free hit (sometimes kill)
-finish off that horse, making the coucher fall in a groupe of allies, before killing any of them, your teammates killing him easily, and ALL gaining points for "just being there", while the range contemplates his 2-4 points for finishing the horse.

What happens to the ninja :
-who takes a while to go all around all alone, to kill thoses 2 far away excellent range that were shooting hell on your troops.

What happens to the cav :
-who decide to risk his life and go after other cavs, on the other side of the battlefield. Sometimes killing two ennemies just before being dehorsed and abandonned.


Apart from thoses points, the system seems okay.

If you read my OP you'll see I'm opposed to the 'radius' stuff that is in the current system, and I favor more of an 'assist' based system.  I think you should get points if you damage someone who ends up dying shortly after, even if you aren't the one who gets the kill.  In addition to getting points for damage dealt, I think this would be much better than being near someone who got a kill or did damage, I agree.

[Bulzur]

Oh, i thought you were suggesting "add-ons" to the way score is now.
My bad. Gave you your +1. ^^

[seddrik]

Siege Attacker!
Open a gate: +1 point
Close a gate: -1 point
Raise a ladder: +1 point
Lower a ladder: -1 point

This is..... not a very intuitive system tho.  Sometimes the best thing to do as an attacker is to SHUT that door and lock those 5 enemy OUTSIDE...

Siege Defender!
Open a gate: -1 point
Close a gate: +1 point (that way if someone is legitimately opening a gate to let cav out, they can get the point back by closing it again)
Raise a ladder: -1 point
Lower a ladder: +1 point

Again... so basically u get no points if u open and close.  Whats the point of the system then?  And, the first guy going out is gonna get penalized for opening the door UNLESS he then just acts like a door man to wait till everyone is out and closes it.

In short.  This is micro managing points.  I don't think it will work as effectively in practice as on paper.

[MrShine]

This is..... not a very intuitive system tho.  Sometimes the best thing to do as an attacker is to SHUT that door and lock those 5 enemy OUTSIDE...

Sometimes... like once in a blue moon.  Also I can hardly see a time where closing the gate as attacker would allow the rest of your team to get to the flag faster than allowing them to run into these 5 imaginary guys.  I think you're trying to find a one-in-a-million situation where an attacker would want to close the gate.

Again... so basically u get no points if u open and close.  Whats the point of the system then?  And, the first guy going out is gonna get penalized for opening the door UNLESS he then just acts like a door man to wait till everyone is out and closes it.

In short.  This is micro managing points.  I don't think it will work as effectively in practice as on paper.

I think you're imagining the gate scenarios differently from how they'd actually happen.  You don't often open/close a gate right next to the door, you generally have to go to a second level or at least get slightly away from the gate to open/close it.  So anyone who opens a gate, and then runs down to run through the gate and expects someone to close it behind them is probably an idiot, since that leaves the gate open for attackers far longer.

The best way to let people out as defense would be to have someone open the gate for you and then close it right after.  With the system I have, that would equal 0 points gained/lost for the gate opener/closer.  Anyone who leaves it open or closed on the other hand would lose points as they should.

The point of the system is to reward attackers who open the gate, and defenders who close the gate.  Attackers for putting up ladders, defenders for knocking them down... etc.  For the rare instances defense needs to open a gate, there's an option for them to gain the point back by closing again.  For the extremely rare instances where attackers close a gate... well they're fucked too bad.

[Moncho]

Quite good ideas. About the score a kill, do you mean you get 2 points apart from the ones corresponding to the damage dealt? Otherwise str builds who can 1hit people with 40-50 dmg would actually get less points.
But the extra 2 points from dealing the killing blow would make sense.
Also in the current system, teamhits are penalised double, which makes up for the 50% friendly fire on the servers (if this hasnt been changed), and I think should be considered in this one too.
Also a formula that took account of your level and enemy level to count points could be used, maybe something like:

finalpts = (enemy lvl+30)/60 *30/yourlvl    *dmg/10

The first part  (before the first *) makes that lvl 1 gives you barely over half points, lvl 30 gives you *1, and over slightly more
The second part gives you a nice extra bonus when low level and a slight nerf when over 30 (11% at lvl 34, 9% at 33, 6% at 32, 3% at 31).
This are just rough numbers i came up with, but with some adjustment a formula of this type could work.

The rest would be quite nice additions

[Kafein]

Tbh, killing/hitting a stray horse should either be completely neutral in points or grant a small amount of negative points.