Author Topic: If French didn't have armours in AZINCOURT.....  (Read 6258 times)

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Offline pepejul

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If French didn't have armours in AZINCOURT.....
« on: July 25, 2012, 01:42:11 pm »
+2
Scientist publication : very interesting : http://www.leeds.ac.uk/news/article/2259/heavy_metal_hardens_battle

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Offline [ptx]

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Re: If French didn't have armours in AZINCOURT.....
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2012, 01:43:45 pm »
+7
..then they'd have been shot up even more?

Offline pepejul

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Re: If French didn't have armours in AZINCOURT.....
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2012, 01:46:18 pm »
0
They surely no charged without plates  :mrgreen:
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Offline Adamar

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Re: If French didn't have armours in AZINCOURT.....
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2012, 02:29:45 pm »
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shields or armor, without either they'd surely lose.

Offline sF_Guardian

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Re: If French didn't have armours in AZINCOURT.....
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2012, 03:54:28 pm »
0
shields or armor, without either they'd surely lose.

Frenchs just use Rafale and Leclerc, no need for tincans with blockhelp...
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Offline Prinz_Karl

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Re: If French didn't have armours in AZINCOURT.....
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2012, 06:23:30 pm »
0
Of course its hardening moving but knights are used to it.

Offline Oberyn

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Re: If French didn't have armours in AZINCOURT.....
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2012, 06:32:13 pm »
+2
Already responded to it in french forum, just gonna repeat myself here. Of course if they take some random guy off the street who isn't used to wearing armor he's not going to be at peak physical performance. A modern soldier's equipment is heavier than medieval armor, you give all the shit to someone who hasn't trained to move and run and travel with it of course the poor fuck will be out of breath and not in any shape to fight.

edit: Oh and I think at Azincourt there was no full "plate" armor as we imagine them, which came a little after. Afaik this period's heaviest armours were transitional types
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Re: If French didn't have armours in AZINCOURT.....
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2012, 06:32:52 pm »
+1
kind of dumb to be wasting your time researching this, there was obviously a lot more to warfare than efficient calorie retention.

Offline Turkhammer

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Re: If French didn't have armours in AZINCOURT.....
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2012, 06:50:05 pm »
+4
Their steel shod feet got stuck in the mud after they were unhorsed or dismounted.  It became exhausting to keep picking up pounds of mud with each step.  The cloth or leather shod feet of the English did not retain mud to any comparable degree, enhancing the mobility and stamina.  Not the whole answer but certainly a contributing factor. 

I heard the French whined about a ranged nerf after the battle.

Offline Adamar

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Re: If French didn't have armours in AZINCOURT.....
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2012, 06:56:00 pm »
+4
When it was obviously chadz fault for not seting the weather up properly.

Offline Oberyn

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Re: If French didn't have armours in AZINCOURT.....
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2012, 07:00:45 pm »
0
The brits were in a defensive position, mud was no factor for them either way, and you must be a complete fucking moron if you think the british foot soldiers were armored only in cloth or leather. The french were exhausted by the time they reached the brit stakes because there was quite a long corridor of churned up mud to get through, under a hail of arrows.
There's tons of other "pointless" research into medieval warfare, this one is as valid as any, the only reason this one is publicized so much is because once "medieval warfare is brought up all the anglo's start masturbating over Azincourt and Crécy, the only two battles they ever learned about because their primary education system is a circle-jerking propaganda fest."
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Re: If French didn't have armours in AZINCOURT.....
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2012, 07:06:29 pm »
+1
My thread was full of peace..please don't bring anglo-french-war-arguments there...
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Offline Turkhammer

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Re: If French didn't have armours in AZINCOURT.....
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2012, 07:12:15 pm »
0
Oberyn are you French?  I'll put your emotional outburst down to Gallic impetuousness.  Usually your posts are intelligent and free from ad hominem attacks.  I feel safe from the charge of being "a fucking moron" when I say that I believe that many of the encumbered French knights were dispatched by archers, using long daggers and war hammers.  These men would have had cloth wrapped feet.  I'm sure the French knights were locally out numbered, exhausted and many were probably prostrate when dispatched with a stab through a lifted visor, under an armpit, or smashed on the helmet with a hammer.

I'll paste what I think is a fair summary from another web site.

Agincourt is the only well-known battle in history where a columnar attack struck a linear defence and failed to break it. The French did not use shields, as their plate armour was proof against almost any weapon powered by human muscle. I believe this was a mistake, as we know the arrowstorm caused them a great deal of trouble: the knights advanced looking at their feet, so the crown of their helms rather than their visors faced the arrows. The arrows probably produced disabling wounds such as broken fingers, penetrations where the arrow struck points of articulation covered by mail, and we know at least one noble was killed by an arrow in the mouth. At Flodden, 100 years later, the Scots gentlemen in the front line were protected by arrow-proof armour, but also pavises wielded by shield-carriers.

If an arrow did penetrate, its residual energy would be determined by the strength of the armour it had defeated. By 1415, a very few Italian and German smiths had just learned how to make plates of the size of breastplates incorporating at least some percentage of the strongest of the four types of iron crystal. Over the next hundred years they learned how to produce very thin corrugated suits of armour, which was as strong or stronger, but which weighed as little as 30kg. These would have been expensive for the richest nobles. By the same time, primitive gun-barrels could be mass-produced cheaply.

The English line was protected by stakes, that helped to break up the formation of attackers and impede cavalry [the sharp end was hammered into the ground, and then the blunt end sharpened]. Heavy cavalry, as always, had the advantage that they could close the range fast enough that they were exposed to few arrowshots, however horses were particularly vulnerable to any projectiles. All men-at-arms present [on foot] are usually technically described as "dismounted cavalry".

The BBC documentary suggested that mud produced by the type of soil on the field is good at forming an airtight seal when in contact with a necessarily smooth surface, and breaking this affinity might have been hard for those men-at arms who fell. The mud would have also reduced their surefootedness, especially if they were pulled over backwards by several varlets. Overall one gets the impression that many of the Frenchmen who got into trouble were probably outnumbered individually, however the fighting been men of quality was very intense and the king's beloved brother was killed in it. Agincourt seems to have been a battle that was a "losing game" from the start due that combination of circumstances that is always at the root of all accidental disasters, one of which was the very highly developed ideas of honour possessed by the attackers that so influenced their battlefield behaviour. This eventually became apparent the the French third line, after the other two had been fed into it. The scale and consequences of the disaster was enormous, given the number of important dead, to which was added consequent social and legal disruption in the aftermath. We can put this battle alongside Midway as an "incredible victory".

Offline Oberyn

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Re: If French didn't have armours in AZINCOURT.....
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2012, 07:35:14 pm »
-1
many of the encumbered French knights were dispatched by archers, using long daggers and war hammers.  These men would have had cloth wrapped feet.  I'm sure the French knights were locally out numbered, exhausted and many were probably prostrate when dispatched with a stab through a lifted visor, under an armpit, or smashed on the helmet with a hammer.

The British army had twice as many archers as knights+foot infantry combined, but the archers had no need to physically engage. The 2k infantry and 1k knights did most if not all of that work.



Agincourt is the only well-known battle in history where a columnar attack struck a linear defence and failed to break it.

.....lol? What qualifies as "well known"? Anglo people know about it? Then yes, that's probably accurate.
The French did not use shields, as their plate armour was proof against almost any weapon powered by human muscle.

Wrong, as he himself points out later on. The vast majority of the knight's armor was "transitional" and not the later more widespread full plate armor
By 1415, a very few Italian and German smiths had just learned how to make plates of the size of breastplates incorporating at least some percentage of the strongest of the four types of iron crystal. Over the next hundred years they learned how to produce very thin corrugated suits of armour, which was as strong or stronger, but which weighed as little as 30kg. These would have been expensive for the richest nobles. By the same time, primitive gun-barrels could be mass-produced cheaply.
The English line was protected by stakes, that helped to break up the formation of attackers and impede cavalry [the sharp end was hammered into the ground, and then the blunt end sharpened]. Heavy cavalry, as always, had the advantage that they could close the range fast enough that they were exposed to few arrowshots, however horses were particularly vulnerable to any projectiles. All men-at-arms present [on foot] are usually technically described as "dismounted cavalry".
The BBC documentary suggested that mud produced by the type of soil on the field is good at forming an airtight seal when in contact with a necessarily smooth surface, and breaking this affinity might have been hard for those men-at arms who fell. The mud would have also reduced their surefootedness, especially if they were pulled over backwards by several varlets. Overall one gets the impression that many of the Frenchmen who got into trouble were probably outnumbered individually, however the fighting been men of quality was very intense and the king's beloved brother was killed in it. Agincourt seems to have been a battle that was a "losing game" from the start due that combination of circumstances that is always at the root of all accidental disasters, one of which was the very highly developed ideas of honour possessed by the attackers that so influenced their battlefield behaviour. This eventually became apparent the the French third line, after the other two had been fed into it. The scale and consequences of the disaster was enormous, given the number of important dead, to which was added consequent social and legal disruption in the aftermath.

This is all more or less accurate afaik.


We can put this battle alongside Midway as an "incredible victory".

Yes, obviously it is not a battle that has been completely romanticized during the Victorian era and propagandized for hundreds of years. Just the fact that this guy fucking compares it to Midway of all possible battles...let me guess, you're American?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 07:38:55 pm by Oberyn »
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Re: If French didn't have armours in AZINCOURT.....
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2012, 07:44:54 pm »
0
OMG WHAT I DID WITH THIS THREAD ????
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