Better builds

[Leshma]

I've said no more suggestion, I know, but this will be final one in quite some time. Basically I've already posted it in my latest topic (20 months later). I'll just get a bit more into detail here. Also I'll split it into 4 or 5 posts so you it's not just wall of text. Let's start.

[Leshma]

Levels:
Maximum level becomes level 40 instead of current level 30. Also that isn't soft cap but hard cap.

Experience needed to gain levels up to 40:

(click to show/hide)

Level	l	XP
1	l	3000
2	l	6000
3	l	9000
4	l	12000
5	l	15000
6	l	18000
7	l	21000
8	l	24000
9	l	27000
10	l	30000
11	l	36000
12	l	42000
13	l	48000
14	l	54000
15	l	60000
16	l	66000
17	l	72000
18	l	78000
19	l	84000
20	l	90000
21	l	101000
22	l	112000
23	l	123000
24	l	134000
25	l	145000
26	l	156000
27	l	167000
28	l	178000
29	l	189000
30	l	200000
31	l	360000
32	l	520000
33	l	680000
34	l	840000
35	l	1000000
36	l	1600000
37	l	2200000
38	l	2800000
39	l	3400000
40	l	4000000

To reach level 20 you'll need 1 hour and 30 minutes (1x multiplier, 1000 XP per tick).
To reach level 30 you'll need 3 hours and 20 minutes (1x multiplier, 1000 XP per tick).
To reach level 35 you'll need 16 hours and 30 minutes (1x multiplier, 1000 XP per tick).
To reach level 40 you'll need 66 hours and 30 minutes (1x multiplier, 1000 XP per tick).

Since there would be no difference in levels, developers will finally accomplish what they started in january 2011. To make high level chars happy they should introduce option that gives them blank high level alts (like STF just with option to retire and level 40) for free based on their current XP. If they want they can keep them at level 40 but they also can retire them for loompoints. One blank alt per level higher than 30 (for me and the likes of me 5 chars).

[Leshma]

Skills:
Currently on level 30 you have 31 skill point available. At level 40 you'll get 10 more which is 41 skill points to spend. Every single build you can think of can be decent with that many skill point.

But something has to be limited and that's maximum amount of skill point you can put in one skill. Currently, level 30 allows extreme builds like 36/3 and 3/36 without serious skill point conversion. High levels and great numbers of skill points can break the balance therefore I think that maximum skill amount should be set at 12. First nerf so far

Also second nerf/buff is that every skills should become valuable. No more first and second grade skills. No more ignored skills. What does that mean?

1) No HP gain per level but IF gives 5 HP per skill point.
2) No more free wpp per level but WM at level 3 allows max wpp in one weapon category.

[Leshma]

Builds:
What will happen to builds, will there be less diversity? Not really.

With max. skill limitation exteme builds will stay the same, maybe a little bit buffed to 36/9 and 9/36 (new extremes).

Balanced builds be buffed and become more desirable than they are now. When I say balanced builds I mean: 21/24 (24/21) and 18/27 (27/18).

Builds diversity stays the same, just that extremes are a bit buffed and that balanced builds can be both fast and damaging which isn't the case atm.

Extreme builds: 36/9 (9/36), 36/12 (12/36), 36/15 (15/36), 36/18 (18/36).
Semi-extremes: 33/12 (12/33), 33/15 (15/33), 30/15 (15/30), 33/18 (18/33), 33/21 (21/33).
Balanced: 21/24 (24/21), 24/24, 24/27 (27/24), 27/27, 24/30 (30/24), 15/30 (30/15), 21/30 (30/21).

[Leshma]

STR vs AGI:
Some players think that AGI builds are OP, many think that STR builds OP. I think that STR builds are only slightly OP.

Only change I would do to buff AGI builds and make them more appealing (they make game faster and with new levels most AGI oriented balanced builds will be very damaging) is to change percentage based reduction of WPF and speed. I would replace it with linear reduction.

[Leshma]

WPF:

Basically a buff for everyone which will give players incentive to play hybrids. Again key work is linear.

But most important is hard cap on wpf.

I don't have the numbers but base idea is to allow everyone with 3 WM to have 175 wpp in single weapon proficiency. If you want to be awesome hybrid you'll need 6 WM (18 AGI and more which means balanced build). With 6 WM you can have 175 wpp in 2 categories. With 9 WM in 3 categories (best build for that is 18/27). With 12 WM in 4 weapon categories but that's pretty gimped 9/36 or slightly better 12/36 build.

Of course at 1-2, 4-5, 7-8, 10-11 WM you can have in between:

- 60 wpp with one skill point in WM, 120 wpp at 2 WM
- 175+60 at 4 WM, 175+120 at 5 WM
- etc.

[Leshma]

Conclusion:

+ Faster gameplay without speeding up the server values.
+ Less tanking, more realistic feel when fighting someone (you need less hits).
+ Very little work for item balancers, stats will buff weapons so they can stay the same, only
   thing they should do to put higher STR/AGI requirements on all items because of stronger   
   builds
+ Less grind, which means that casuals will easier catch up with veterans and those who play A LOT (for them, ultimate
   dream of every cRPG player will be even closer to reality and that's every item in database
   +3)
+ Fair for everyone and closer to ultimate balance while still keeping the essence of Warband
+ Build balance will shift from attributes to skill which is a good thing because attributes should only be base for creation
    of a good build, where main roll have skills

- Certain players might not like this because they won't have advantage over others
- Some may think that this will break the game and make it too fast, thus making it harder for them
- Some probably think that becoming level 30 in 3 hours and less is lulz idea (because they are used to current zystem)
- Natural QQ of certain players
- Players who don't like me which means all my suggestions are shit
- You tell me?

[Patoson]

All of your ideas are very interesting, and I specially like the one about less grind or faster levelling (at least at low levels).

I like heirlooming things, but the levelling process is really painful, and I mainly play this game to have fun, not the opposite.

The only thing I would not want are faster weapons, because people with a high ping would suffer the most.

[Matey]

ughhhh no no no no no no no no no no.

3 WM for maxed wpf in a wep catagory? then all the str crutchers would now have maxed out wpf to go with their retarded str builds.
no HP for leveling up? only HP for IF? so everyone with half a brain will play 36/9. 175wpf in 2hand or pole with 12IF for an extra 60hp. and i think you said less penalty to wpf for armour? so now tin cans get way more wpf, less penalty, and a bigger HP gain than anyone else? i realize the actual hit points of str crutchers would be about the same, but everyone else would fall further behind. you might see a few people running something like 27/18 or 30/15 for hybrids, but anyone who wants to have lots of agi can just go fuck off and stop playing. you said you think str is currently a little too powerful but your change would just make str way better than it already is. right now wpf does barely anything for melee, but its still an advantage that agi has, and you want to take that away? thats crazy.

[Bjord]

No, sorry.

It's just too radical of a change, and I highly doubt devs will listen to this(or you for that matter).

[Leshma]

so everyone with half a brain will play 36/9. 175wpf in 2hand or pole with 12IF for an extra 60hp.

Seems scary, I know. But the thing is, hybrid can have 9 less STR (3 less PS/IF), 175 in 2h/1h/poles and 175 in xbow. While still being fast with 21 or maybe even more AGI. And you can also put 5 points in shield skill!

But I do understand, you don't want to play hybrid build. That's fine.

Make 12/36 build which has 4 IF/PS, 12 Shield/Ath and 3 WM (175 in 1H). Use Deadly Steel pick or Mighty Warhammer. Scary twohander/pole/mauler will be easy meal for you. You're 5 times faster, speed bonus is simply out of this world. You'll kill them in less than 5 seconds and they won't even have a chance. They will have serious problems to block any of your attacks, they can't break your shield and they can't kick you because you're too fast. Perfect counter.

That's why this system is best for hybrids. You can have the best counter which always work against certain build but some specific hybrid build will give you hell. They can be almost as fast your build while having so many options to eliminate you.

[Leshma]

It's just too radical of a change

That's the whole point. To be radical, to be new upkeep patch.

[Matey]

Seems scary, I know. But the thing is, hybrid can have 9 less STR (3 less PS/IF), 175 in 2h/1h/poles and 175 in xbow. While still being fast with 21 or maybe even more AGI. And you can also put 5 points in shield skill!

But I do understand, you don't want to play hybrid build. That's fine.

Make 12/36 build which has 4 IF/PS, 12 Shield/Ath and 3 WM (175 in 1H). Use Deadly Steel pick or Mighty Warhammer. Scary twohander/pole/mauler will be easy meal for you. You're 5 times faster, speed bonus is simply out of this world. You'll kill them in less than 5 seconds and they won't even have a chance. They will have serious problems to block any of your attacks, they can't break your shield and they can't kick you because you're too fast. Perfect counter.

That's why this system is best for hybrids. You can have the best counter which always work against certain build but some specific hybrid build will give you hell. They can be almost as fast your build while having so many options to eliminate you.

except that my swing speed would be basically the same as theirs, and they have superior reach so they dont have to try to close the gap with me and thus dont care how fast i move. maybe if agi means more for weapon speed and instead of 3 WM = 1 maxed out (at 175) weapon category you go with like each WM gets you 30 and 180 is the max. so you could do 6WM to max out one thing or you could settle for 120 or 150 and do hybrid builds... or even a high agi hybrid that maxes out 2 things... that might be ok... but if you let str builds get maxed wpf with 3 points into WM then you are really making agi only useful for archers, cav, hybrids or really really dedicated shielders (which includes me... but there really arent that many). I think if you changed the WM to be as I said then it would be a little more feasible but ehh I dunno.

[Tomas]

I applaud the intention but it is just too many changes to properly judge its impact.

Personally, I would rather just see the following small change

The 7th skill level in any given skill and all of the levels after it cost 2 skill points rather than just 1.

This change would do the following
- slightly curbs the power of extreme builds
- curbs the power of high level pure builds
- encourages hybridding at high levels rather than skill stacking

Increasing wpf comes at a greater cost the higher you go, so why not skills as well?

[Everkistus]

I got to agree on one thing: I too want high-lvl builds give better payoff. I loved it way back when you could reach lvl 44 and extreme stuff like that.