Author Topic: Horses - how to improve difficulty  (Read 25938 times)

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Offline Kafein

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #285 on: July 04, 2012, 11:46:59 pm »
+4
I hope one day, cavalry gameplay in this mod will consist of mass charges with couched great lances.

That would be awesome but first we would need medieval battlefields, not retarded FPS maps.

Offline Leshma

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #286 on: July 05, 2012, 12:10:13 am »
+1
I hope one day, cavalry gameplay in this mod will consist of mass charges with couched great lances.

Sounds cool and it's actually realistic but I wouldn't go that far. Will make cavalry extremely boring.

It's like playing different version of Star Trek online, where every player has his role on ship and you're the one pressing teleport button all the time. Sounds like fun, eh?

Offline Frell

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #287 on: July 05, 2012, 01:48:03 am »
0
Sounds cool and it's actually realistic but I wouldn't go that far. Will make cavalry extremely boring.

It's like playing different version of Star Trek online, where every player has his role on ship and you're the one pressing teleport button all the time. Sounds like fun, eh?
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Offline Vicious666

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #288 on: July 05, 2012, 01:51:35 am »
+2
more inertia chadz

less control of a horse at full speed

Offline Torben

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #289 on: July 05, 2012, 01:53:51 am »
0
the thread is about upping cav vs cav skill requirement,  vicious
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Offline cmp

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #290 on: July 05, 2012, 01:55:39 am »
0
Cav, not cav vs cav.

Offline Torben

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #291 on: July 05, 2012, 01:59:48 am »
+3
damit,  misread this
it's about balancing cav vs cav, skill wise

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Offline Casimir

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #292 on: July 05, 2012, 02:04:09 am »
0
perm ban inc.
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Offline Torben

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #293 on: July 05, 2012, 02:06:26 am »
0
perm ban inc.

-.-  seriously misread it.  aint about cav vs cav combat,  but about skill distinguishing the effectiveness of cav more.  now I want a cookie.
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Offline Rheinhardt

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #294 on: July 05, 2012, 09:19:30 am »
+4
Massive post incoming. Ten points. Not all are strictly cav v cav, but when poking a stick at a spider web, there's always a wide range of changes.

Maximum lance angle for a stab should be dependant on lance length. Longer lances should be restrained to the forward arc. Shorter lances should allow stabs to the side, at least the left side. A very short lance like the light lance could even allow a stab to the left rear quarter. This will result in lancers having to decide if they want a long reach but narrow engagement area, or a short reach but wide engagement area. Short lances would be effective in horse-to-horse melee.

The great lance should be one slot. Why is it -not- one slot? You only ever have it in your right hand. When it is not in your right hand it is discarded on the ground. You likely didn't even carry it to the fight yourself, your squire lashed them to a pack mule. This would let a greatlance/1h/large shield knight proper start playing. Before you freak out, remember lance breaking could come into effect.

The idea of lances breaking after so many couches is an appealing balance consideration for when lancers begin to thoroughly dominate through the use of couched lances. Right now most lancers I see use the heavy lance and stab it. Couching proper is rare. However, should lances start taking damage like shields do, we need to consider the circumstances. Lances are polearms. Most 'lancers' use their lances in thrusts rather than couches. Nothing would prevent these from switching to warspears or otherwise to avoid damage to lances caused by non-couched attacks.

Couching doesn't really need a nerf, which lance breaking certainly would be. If unsheathable and couchable lances became one slot items, perhaps they would. But right now one can only couch when charging straight at a target with terrain favorable (and no pikes around), so breakable lances might nerf couching into the ground. Lowering the 'speed limit' for couching would help.

Arrows need to do a flat 50% less damage to horses, or the hitboxes need to be adjusted, or horses in general need far more armor. Lets face facts; most of a horse's head is sinuses. Only the area behind the eyes is the braincase. An arrow has to go through two or three times as much meat and bone to reach an organ in the thorax. The entire back of the neck is a muscle. The flanks could be riddled with arrows before the animal dies of bleeding to death. Honestly, you should not have a reasonable chance to kill these animals outright without the sort of force that would completely impale an armored man, and even then, only to a weak point. The practical result of some increase to a horse's durability would be more focus on killing the man in cav v cav, which is currently more like man versus horse and then see if you can finish the rider off conveniently. It will also make melee horsemen viable starting with a horse like the destrier.

Although this is nominally cav v cav, cav v inf is an interwoven theme with every change you make; nothing happens in a vaccuum. So while I'm on the subject, hitting E while my horse is moving slowly should give a rearing animation and two big blunt-damage knockdown kicks in front of my horse equal to the charge value.

One change needs to be made regarding horses; a horse that dies needs a quarter or half second of 'momentum' time before it falls over and the rider dehorsed. This means a thousand pounds of horseflesh, killed with a non-staggering blow, just before hurtling into a mass of men will behave like a thousand pounds of horseflesh crushing puny infantrymen, rather than cotton candy. This would put more emphasis on staggering horses when you kill them, as it would prevent the bump-damage steamroller. Outright killed horses with a stagger would rear up before collapsing. This has a particular effect on cav-versus-cav lancing.

A couched charge into a cloth archer shouldn't damage the lance. A couched charge into a peasant's old heater shield shouldn't damage the lance. Basically, a couch should have to be successfully blocked for the lance to be damaged; high level shields, great shield skill, weak charge. If the shield breaks, the lance only takes partial damage. If the shield survives, the lances takes full damage. How much abuse a lance takes should depend on its length/weight. Heavy long lances should be able to take more punishment than light long lances, and light short lances should be more durable than their longer counterparts.

When couching with a shield, the shield should be blocking. Then we would finally have proper cav-on-cav head-on jousts! The challenge would become hitting the enemy player directly or his shield and shattering through while he does the same. If he aims for the horse instead, the horse will continue for a half second as the previous point suggests, and the lancer while dehorsed in a moment can still kill the enemy player. This will encourage aiming for the man rather than the horse in head-on lancings. Furthermore, right now archers can line up shots on a charging lancer and hit them, foiling the couch. With the shield properly blocking, arrows will have a much harder time finding their mark. This weakens Xbow cav, who use this to defeat a charging lancer with a cheap staggering shot. This also makes archers more dependant on pikemen to defend them, since they can no longer rely on their own ability to kill the horse or stagger the rider just before the impact.

And lastly, as some other mods have, damage to the horse should reduce its speed. Starting at 50% or 66% damage, the horse needs to start running slower and slower until a near-death horse is barely able to outpace a man. This will make horsemen less effective the longer they stay in combat, reducing the rounds that end up with a near-death horse bearing around a xbowman at full trolling speed. It also counter-balances all the various 'buffs' that go into cavalry players, and makes cav-on-cav pursuit much more interesting. A good first hit might make the enemy courser slower than your destrier, while his first hit might not damage your tougher horse enough to slow it.

To summarize.

1. Tie lance stab angle to length of lance; longer lance, narrower angle.
2. The unsheathable, couch-only lance should be one slot.
3. Couching damaging lances must be created with other changes or else it is a flat nerf that will drive people away from the class.
4. Lower the speed limit for couching.
5. Increase horse armor, total hitpoints, adjust hit boxes; just make them tougher to kill than their riders!
6. E should rear the horse and send two big knockdown kicks in front of the animal with some blunt damage to boot.
7. Horses should not die immediately, rather persist for 1/4-1/2 of a second before dying.
8. Only a successfully blocked couch should damage the lance; a broken shield damaging less than an intact shield.
9. Couching should activate a shield's full block potential.
10. As a horse takes damage, it should slow, starting at 50%-66% health on down.

Points 1, 5, and 7 increase a horseman's close quarters capability against cav and infantry.
Points 2, 5, 7, 8 and 9 combined will result in head-to-head jousting between two couchers who actually aim for the enemy shield.
Points 1, 5, 6, 7 and 9 increase the horseman's melee staying power, as opposed to hit-and-run fighting.
Point 10 provides a needed counter-balance to cavalry.

I think that combined this would be a big change for cavalry and make them more complicated to fight as, with more options than the straight lancer we currently see wheeling about. Real knights that charge a horse into the infantry's main body directly, couch, take an arrow to the shield, run a 2hander through with their great lance, drop the lance, draw their sword and start hacking and kicking the horse until the beast is slain or the knight falls. Meanwhile light cavalry lancers could intercept these heavy knights and plague them with light lance or double-sided lance stabs at angles the heavy knight can't react to. Much more durable horses means archers will need to stick to the pikemen and pikemen will need shieldmen to finish off unhorsed knights. And horses slowing as they damage serves as the big balancing nerf; horses wounded in battle become less effective, meaning all cav, but horse archers and xbow archers in particular, become less dangerous the longer they're in battle.

Offline Zlisch_The_Butcher

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #295 on: July 05, 2012, 02:39:24 pm »
+1
First of all there gotta be some way to make horses louder, make horses spam some voice command constantly? Then leave an option in some QM setting so people without sound turned on can get a chat message saying "Cavalry within 20 meter radius" but not saying whether it's teammates, or how many, or exactly how close... if horses are made louder like this hopefully it'll get inf retards to actual look behind them once in a while.
Now, bump damage just needs to be fucking nerfed, there is nothing that saddens me more ingame than playing lancer on my main with 0 wpf, missing with the lance, and then killing anyway with a bump, given, I'm on an arabian which ain't got half the bump damage of the destrier so my targets must've been nearly dead, but still. Allowing bumps to do so much damage that it compensates for hitting with the lance is fucking stupid. Now, give lancercav their old lance angle back, or at least a wider one than right now, if possible, make the lance randomly bump around while you have it chambered/couched, bumping more violently the faster you're going, you'd still be able to move it back in position instantly, but this'd make it require slightly more awareness and aim to than atm, also, if possible, add a chance of dropping a lance when it's chambered for more than 1 second, so people will chamber then release instantly, and a chance of falling off the horse if you lance but don't hit anything (a teammate, an enemy, a block, a shield, etc), to make missing hurt the rider more.
Give HAs and HXs (AND HTs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) speed bonus, so that riding more foward and charging will be better for them in any way than running away from their enemies.

Now, remove blocking from all lances (can still block with a shield), and make heavy+great lance 3slot, remove shield forcefield, make horses faster and more maneuverable so riding requires greater reflexes, and make riders take heavy falling damage.

One final thing that'd add to playing cav would be a button that puts you in "charge" mode, bumping barely slows you down here, and any hit that should've reared your horse insta kills it, and if you die your horse sprints as fast as it can forward, this would actually make mass cav charges work, one dead guy or a reared guy wouldn't stop the entire charge.
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1H stab is the fastest, strongest and longest 1H animation. There's no reason NOT to use it in all instances. I don't know if it's OP, but it's boring. 1H used to be fun because you had a fast (left), long (right) and the most devastating attack (stab) and had to choose the best attack for each occasion.

Offline _Tak_

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #296 on: July 05, 2012, 02:44:58 pm »
0
Give HAs and HXs (AND HTs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) speed bonus

+1, lancers + 1 handed cav are too OP at the moment compare to them, HA, HX, HT needs a buff to become anti Cav

Offline Torben

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #297 on: July 05, 2012, 07:41:38 pm »
0
+1, lancers + 1 handed cav are too OP at the moment compare to them, HA, HX, HT needs a buff to become anti Cav

dont get it, lot of HAs need 2-3 shots to down my horse.
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Offline Casimir

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #298 on: July 05, 2012, 09:20:56 pm »
+1
buff 2h cav!
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Offline Penitent

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #299 on: July 05, 2012, 09:26:12 pm »
0
I think its good having some control issues with the horse.  Well trained horses will kind of know where to go sometimes.  They can be steered with the legs, and if they know the rider it can be very intuitive to control one.

Adding momentum (when turning, accelerating, decelerating) would be cool.
Adding more of a trample factor would be cool.
At the same time, horses that are very injured or distressed may become unresponsive to commands, so that would be cool too.

Maybe give horses 4 or 5 speeds.  Walk, trot, canter, gallop...for example.  Currently in CRPG a rider has VERY fine control over how fast the horse can go.  Maybe that should be dulled a bit.
A horse that was just shot in the ass may gallop out of control for a few secs before you can slow it down.  If it is a trained war horse, maybe not.

There are a lot of interesting things you can do!

« Last Edit: July 05, 2012, 09:31:18 pm by Garison »