Shields don't affect swing speed.

[IG_Saint]

While delivering so many hits in a duel is fine, in a battlefield that is too much time wasted the more time you spend on an opponent the less control you have.  As time goes by you leave more and more room for the unexpected and the uncontrolled to happen (aka he gets supported by friendlies, stray throwing, stray arrows, cav runs you over ets....).  That is why being able to kill an opponent in 1 to 2 hits is a huge advantage that is not often talked about (its a major reason why 2 handers and polearms are so much better then shielders and why I am going back to polearm)

I largely agree with you, but this part is bothering me. Yes 2h and polearms do much more damage, but you do have to hit the shielder first and with the absolutely trivial blocking of shields that can be quite a challenge.  Balance wise, I'd say that at low skill levels 2h/polearm have the advantage with their spammability and damage, at mid skill level shielders have the advantage due to their trivial blocking and at top level it's balanced. That's all without taking into account gear. axebreaking weapons obviously shift the balance, just like the top shields do vs non axebreaking weapons.

[EponiCo]

Formless you have some points but you are overexaggerating.
Shielder has some problems 2h has not, true, but this balances with not having to block. On my shielders (with only heater) I've only done a bit worse than on 2h, but this discounts greater tactical flexibility. I can just stand in a shieldwall and stare down the enemy, where as 2h I get a javelin in the face.
I'd think the round shields are balanced, the heraldic heater/kites could need some slight buff and huscarl can be taken down a bit.

While delivering so many hits in a duel is fine, in a battlefield that is too much time wasted the more time you spend on an opponent the less control you have.  As time goes by you leave more and more room for the unexpected and the uncontrolled to happen (aka he gets supported by friendlies, stray throwing, stray arrows, cav runs you over ets....).  That is why being able to kill an opponent in 1 to 2 hits is a huge advantage that is not often talked about (its a major reason why 2 handers and polearms are so much better then shielders and why I am going back to polearm).  That is why I consider a high agility build for a shielder more difficult to play and not less then an str build shielder.

Also, this goes both ways round. I'd always rather fight against a 2h over a shielder, because you can expect the fight to be over relatively fast. It's rare that you fight against a huscarl shielder and kill him fast enough to not have one of his buddies interfere. And when you are knocked down it's suddenly LMB all over the place.

[Noble Crassius]

I didn't notice you topping boards until you adopted the shielder class. I look forward to seeing how you do next retirement.

[Gorath]

Shields should be slow, cumbersome, shithead crutches like they were IRL.

^
Proof you're a fucking idiot.  You obviously have no fucking idea how shields are/were used IRL combat, which btw was just as much as offensive weapons as they were defensive devices.  You're just as likely to suffer fatal blows to the head from a shield bash/punch with the edge of the shield than you are with a sword, moreso if you're wearing a helmet.  Shields were not slow, cumbersome, shithead crutches.  Barring large tower shields like the roman's used, they were fast, mobile, deadly tools of warfare.  FFS you can google videos of this shit all over the web from reenactor groups and duelist clubs nowadays even.   

[Kafein]

Just remove those bloody bucklers ffs

Or make them useless against anything ranged, and have the same HP as tier 1 shields.

The wrong thing with shields like they actually are in the game is that allmost everyone on foot uses hurscarl, trolls use bucklers, many horsemen use those fugly norman shields, and... that's all. Very few people wear other shields, because even if they are more stylish, the stats are imba.

For example, if we tried  to match more with history, hurscarl shield should be utter crap breaking in three hits, and board shields should replace the current hurscarl. Round shields should in general be more easily breakable, like they were IRL (round shields were used in early middle ages, and certainly not with iron or steel reinforcements). Heather (and probably kite) shields came later, and were simply better in a variety of ways.


About shields protecting from all sides against ranged. For the buckler and the hurscarl it's true. But for all others, it's definetly the opposite. I often see myself and other shielders shot trough their shields, by arrows or even throwing weps. And given 95% of the cRPG players now generally play a char with at least one ranged weapon, well... we could hope SHIELDS can protect someone from ranged attacks.

[Cyclopsided]

Uh, back on topic.

Shields affect swing speed when blocking. With a slower speed rating shield, when you block it takes longer to fully put up a block and release it so you can then swing the next time, which gives an effective drop in weapon speed. Use the fur covered shield compared to a steel buckler, and you will see how much longer it takes to actually block attacks then attack again.
If you don't block? Then it is not going to lower your attack speed WITH 1handed weapons. It will lower it with a polearm by 30% though. Regardless of blocking.

[rustyspoon]

Uh, back on topic.

Shields affect swing speed when blocking. With a slower speed rating shield, when you block it takes longer to fully put up a block and release it so you can then swing the next time, which gives an effective drop in weapon speed. Use the fur covered shield compared to a steel buckler, and you will see how much longer it takes to actually block attacks then attack again.
If you don't block? Then it is not going to lower your attack speed WITH 1handed weapons. It will lower it with a polearm by 30% though. Regardless of blocking.

Actually, testing with a fur covered shield and a knightly heater, it came out to be exactly the same. Starting out with a full block, doing a full swing, blocking, swinging, repeated for 30 seconds. Exact same amount of swings. I'm trying to put together a video to demonstrate, but this rat bastard fraps keeps crashing after every second recording. 

I'm pretty sure I figured out why smaller shields SEEM faster though. In order for shields to be considered "blocking" they have to be in a certain physical position. I am assuming that this is measured by the top of the shield so as not to stick above the characters head on larger shields. To be in the blocking position, the top of the shield needs to be in that exact coordinate. A small shield - like a buckler - need to travel a MUCH larger distance than a huscarl. Therefore, in order to reach the blocking position in the set amount of time the animation speed is increased. However, since no blocking is actually done until it is in the blocking position, it gets no benefit from it's technically higher speed. So it's essentially moving faster, but not blocking any faster.

[Grey]

^
Proof you're a fucking idiot.  You obviously have no fucking idea how shields are/were used IRL combat, which btw was just as much as offensive weapons as they were defensive devices.  You're just as likely to suffer fatal blows to the head from a shield bash/punch with the edge of the shield than you are with a sword, moreso if you're wearing a helmet.  Shields were not slow, cumbersome, shithead crutches.  Barring large tower shields like the roman's used, they were fast, mobile, deadly tools of warfare.  FFS you can google videos of this shit all over the web from reenactor groups and duelist clubs nowadays even.   

I would FUCKING LOVE to see this in crpg....when I diss shields, I diss them as we see them in movies, as they are used in crpg, etc.

My short reason for not taking a shield is that I plan to kill, and shields do 0 dmg, soooooooo, I dont take them.

If I could press LMB while holding RMB, and bash my opponent back, then I would be THE FIRST IN LINE at the friggin shop page decking out my spartan character.....

[Christo]

The only shielders who deserve a bash are the Spear/Shield users.

1h can do fine without it.

[Spawny]

Read the most replies in this thread, fell from my chair.

Played shielder for 8 gens (main now 30 shielder) and found it hard to compete with my 2h/polearms clanmates.

Made a polearms alt at gen 3 now and he's FAR easier to play, easier to get kills and I play with a friggin awlpike with only 2 attack directions.

(Stating you percieve something as easier does not mean it's "easymode")

[Grey]

awlpike me when Im not facing the opposite direction. I dare ya bro XD

[Phazey]

Lots of nonsense and some epeenery by that grey guy in this thread. 

High shield skill + huscarl causes a 'forcefield' type of effect. Sucks for archers but hey, that's the one thing that shielders are supposed to be good for.

Also: crushthrough weapons and 'bonus against shield' are everywhere. Man, even a regular 2h sword breaks shields in no time.

Formless is right as always. What he said.

[Dravic]

Also: crushthrough weapons and 'bonus against shield' are everywhere. Man, even a regular 2h sword breaks shields in no time.

Phazey, you saw my post at least once. And you still don't get it?!

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,3246.msg58386.html#msg58386

And even if my maths aren't EXACTLY correct, I did tests and guy *8 power strike* with tempered German Greatsword *no against shields bonus* had to hit my Steel Shield 100+ times to make shields picture become first stage of breaking.

And steel shield isn't op vs ranged weapons etc, because you can hit my legs when i block with steel shield. But hey, its fuckin funny to see how 5 people are trying to destroy your shield and they can't do shit to it 

[Phazey]

I don't like the steel shield. First of all, it needs a minimum of 6 shield skill, thus forcing a 18/18 build or even a 15/21. Second, unless you go a 'crazy agi 9 shield skill' type of build, it's coverage against ranged is very bad.

Do the same test with 4 shield skill and a huscarl and you'll see that huscarl break in only a couple of swings.

But yeh, maybe if i get bored i'll try your uber steel shielder build.

[Christo]

Yes, yes. Steel Shield can be powerful.. but you'll feel like it's made out of Cardboard when you meet an Axeman.