Author Topic: Weapon Master Buff- less wpf reduction from armor  (Read 4030 times)

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Offline John

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Re: Weapon Master Buff- less wpf reduction from armor
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2012, 03:08:06 am »
+1
I really do not understand why shielders wear armor anyways.

Because when you have more than 10 ping, people phase through you all the time and you can get hit despite having a shield.

Offline Matey

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Re: Weapon Master Buff- less wpf reduction from armor
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2012, 07:00:21 am »
0
honestly... fuck people who have less than 3WM... they deserve to have awful swing speed in exchange for their 36/3 nonsense.
3/36 is garbage so why is it so offensive to imagine 36/3 also being garbage? and really, 36/3 will never be useless anyways cause even if you cant 1v1 for shit due to awful swing speeds, you can still one shot people in battle and soak tons of damage.

so yeah... hows this for an idea... look at curve on how many points = 1 wpf... increase this number at the start and decrease it later, or find a number and just have it always be that... so right now: a 36/3 wanker with 1WM would have (according to the vargas char builder) 291 points which currently would get them 119 wpf if they dump it all into one thing. a 27/12 build 4wm would have 441 points to spend which could get them up to 140 in the weapon of their choice. a balanced 18/18 build with 6 WM would have 591 for 156 wpf. Lastly a 12/27 with 9WM would have 891 points which can get them to 182 in whatever wep.

so the difference in the WM is really not that much. 119 is pretty slow but it is functional. 140 compared to 156 and 182 is very minor and most people are perfectly happy having 130-140... even with armour penalties being applied.

i tried some calculations with each wpf costing 4 or 5 points, and while the high WM build can survive this, it would be pretty brutal on anyone with under 6 WM so I think to make it work, perhaps the amount of wpf gained per point into WM should also be a consistent number? or alternatively, remove all wpf point gains from leveling and make it so that WM is the only way to get points for WPF and each point of WPF always costs 1 point, but the amount of points gained for each level of WM would actually decrease.. example. you get 40 WPF for 1WM then 30 for 2, 25 for 3, 20 for 4, 15 for 5, 10 for 6, 10 for 7, 10 for 8, 10 for 9, 10 for 10 and so on. doing it this way would put the total points you could spend at... 0WM = 0, 1WM = 40, 2WM = 70, 3WM = 95, 4WM = 115, 5WM = 130 then 140/150/160/170/180 for 6/7/8/9/10 and so on. Personally, I think there is a better way to do it but I think some serious overhaul to the way you get and spend WPF points would be great. I think the main goals would be to make it so having 3WM would get you to about 100wpf while less than 3 is quite disadvantageous. the other important things are to make sure people arent getting into the 200s (cause that gets out of hand fast) and lastly making sure we dont get hybrids that have 140 in this and a 140 in that. there is nothing wrong with having wpf in 2 different things, but you shouldnt be as good at both as most players are at one or the other. I dont want agi or WM to be OP, it just needs to be a bit more important. the average player should probably gravitate towards a balanced build until they want to start specializing in certain areas.


gah I ranted. oh well.

TL:DR make WM mean more by overhauling the math on WPF. make it seriously painful to play with less than 3WM and make sure having 10+ WM doesnt get retarded.

p.s. I have 8WM which nets me 172wpf in 1hand and I think that is pretty fair... when I had 9WM i had 181 WPF which also was pretty fair since I had less PS as a result. I think wpf numbers players can reach with high amounts of WM are pretty good right now, I just think that players with no WM are getting it way too easy right now.

oh oh! one more idea! implement something like in single player where you need X WM to surpass X WPF. for example, I think you need 1WM in order to take a weapon past 60wpf? and like 2WM for 100? 3 for 120? something like that... im sure cRPG devs could find a way to make that work as well... "0WM? ok you cap at 50wpf... you can still have 114 points to spend and have 50 in 2hand and 50 in pole... but you dont pass 50."

Offline Smoothrich

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Re: Weapon Master Buff- less wpf reduction from armor
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2012, 09:42:58 am »
0
I really do not understand why shielders wear armor anyways.

You and matey do light infantry (very well) which is all about 1 vs 1s, catching people out of position, and you wear light armor for the move speed and wpf.

Medium to heavy armor enables people to fight in the main blob better, and half the damage you are reducing, especially as a shielder, is friendly swings trying to killsteal you.  I know my shielder gens had ~12 armor weight or less to be decent at both.

Its a good, logical trade of offense (wpf) to defense (armor), with light armor having the mobility advantage to not be swarmed by plate my old friends or get the edge in duels.

I certainly do not think heavy armor needs faster swing speeds, its a buff to armor crutching and I think would disrupt some of the established balance that works good out of the melee characters.

And san, do you really think your steel pick doesn't swing fast enough in your ~20 weight kit or whatever it is, haha.  100 speed is gonna be fast no matter what.  Hell full plate doesn't stop Neo from pro pick play.

Finally the biggest problem would be balanced builds, especially level 32+, wearing full plate and using pierce weapons.  Do you guys remember Tydeus and Galgorth back in the day as plate my old friends with becs and balanced builds?  Excellent duelists, and just stupid staying power in battle servers.  I imagine it would be like giving 18/21 builds in full plate another level or two of powerstrike when they get more effective WPF, with max WM doing damage upwards of high strength builds today.  They should be able to achieve high damage with Weapon Master, but at the trade off of armor weight (I like the weight/wpf mechanic)

I agree with matey that 0 WM builds need to be punished more, it honestly allows people to make retarded builds (especially over level 31), something I love about Rhaelys is that he posts his build in every discussion on this and talks about how broken it is.  I think it's 30/12 with max IF, 0 WM, and 2 shield at level 33?  Banded armor + great long bardiche.  And watch him play and tell me how gimped you think his footwork or swingspeeds are lmao.  Reducing the innate WPF gain with leveling and increasing the WPF per level of weapon master is definitely a good start, or something similar.

Anyways this is a moot point because the devs as far as I know have something in mind already to make weapon master more appealing, and any discussion we have is probably meaningless except for Paul/Urist to read condescendingly while he twirls his Snidely Whiplash moustache and assures cmp that overhead nerf is great for melee play and the people will learn to love it.
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Offline bruce

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Re: Weapon Master Buff- less wpf reduction from armor
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2012, 11:03:03 am »
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There's a few easyish ways to deal with 0-1 WM builds, mainly making leveling give less wpf and WM more, balancing it so that level 30 builds with WM are more or less the same as now, but ones with <3 WM have less wpf.

It is also a better approach then making WM give you less wpf reduction from armour.
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Offline Smoothrich

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Re: Weapon Master Buff- less wpf reduction from armor
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2012, 03:08:25 pm »
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I definitely don't want to see both an increased to how WPF scales up with higher levels of weapon master, and faster weapons in general when the devs rebalance combat speed.  I know a lot of people think the game is generally way too slow, but personally I have a lot of trouble reacting sometimes to weapons that are 100+ speed, and doubly so with the one hand animations in a close distance.  Italian swords, scimitars, picks, etc.

One time I tried dueling a guy on EU server so i had ~110ping, we dueled for a good 20 minutes and were similar skill level, but he had a high WM build probably and was using a katana (102 speed MW i believe).  I could read the incoming attack properly and put up my block, but I felt like I was always just fractions of a second too slow to compensate with lag.  I had to straight up ask him to switch weapons in order to play.

Maybe I'm just bad, but I think a lot of people, probably the majority of players who aren't VISCERAL 2FASt2FURIOUS INSTAKILL REALISM DUEL pr0s, would be turned off by even more people running around with extremely fast and spammy weapons, blowing through animations to hit before some people can react.  So don't just "buff wm" and weapon speeds to a silly level imo.
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Offline oprah_winfrey

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Re: Weapon Master Buff- less wpf reduction from armor
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2012, 03:54:32 pm »
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The way I look at the current WPF system is that WM over 3 is just worthless for pure melee, and that first 3 is mostly to neutralize wpf penalties from armor. The same way that having PT, PD, HA is useless for a pure melee build. This isn't even the worst system, as long as everyone knows this, which I would assume is starting to become the case at this point.

However, I look foward to WPF actually mattering and what will wind up being a nerf to strength builds.

Offline Bobthehero

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Re: Weapon Master Buff- less wpf reduction from armor
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2012, 06:28:01 pm »
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Well lets just hope it a buff to agi, rather than a nerf to strenght, eh?
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Offline San

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Re: Weapon Master Buff- less wpf reduction from armor
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2012, 06:33:42 pm »
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No, steel pick is fast enough even with like 70 wpf. I won't benefit from this because I want to do a 0 WM build cause WM sucks.

Offline oprah_winfrey

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Re: Weapon Master Buff- less wpf reduction from armor
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2012, 06:35:48 pm »
+1
Well lets just hope it a buff to agi, rather than a nerf to strenght, eh?

Fine, how about a nerf to first person view.

Offline Bobthehero

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Re: Weapon Master Buff- less wpf reduction from armor
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2012, 06:39:23 pm »
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But... but... you might as well nerf swashbucklers at that point :(
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Offline Matey

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Re: Weapon Master Buff- less wpf reduction from armor
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2012, 09:09:11 pm »
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Well lets just hope it a buff to agi, rather than a nerf to strenght, eh?

sorry bob but it needs to be done. 36/3 will never be as bad as 3/36 but it needs to be pretty bad. you may just have to suck it up and do 27/12 or something.

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Re: Weapon Master Buff- less wpf reduction from armor
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2012, 09:21:38 pm »
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I do 32/9 at level 33 now, I have points in Weapons Master, so anything that buff it works for me :P
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Offline Canary

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Re: Weapon Master Buff- less wpf reduction from armor
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2012, 01:57:38 am »
+2
I do 32/9 at level 33 now, I have points in Weapons Master, so anything that buff it works for me :P

This pretty much exemplifies why a change to weapon master would be best if it coincided with a nerf to strength-heavy builds (and their wpf). You can't have your cake and eat it, too. If you want the best of both kinds of benefits, you roll a balanced build.

TL:DR make WM mean more by overhauling the math on WPF. make it seriously painful to play with less than 3WM and make sure having 10+ WM doesnt get retarded.

I don't think it should be painful to play, just statistically penalizing. I mean, there are slow weapons that work, why wouldn't a slow-swinging build work?

One thing that seems inconsistent is how much you lose out on for not having power strike. It would make sense to make weapon master similarly requisite as a statistic.  If that were the case, since they both serve a similar function, you could viably take one or the other and do just as well or nearly as well, if in a slightly different fashion. It would certainly even things out between strength and agility somewhat. Although this would be bad because...

Finally the biggest problem would be balanced builds, especially level 32+, wearing full plate and using pierce weapons.

...balanced builds would probably get too much of a benefit by finding a median between the two viable damage skills and end up even further ahead, in many facets, than they already are, unless the changes were very carefully implemented.

While I think it's somewhat unrealistic to talk about and compare 36/3 builds to 3/36 builds as if they're really what people are generally doing, it does paint a vivid picture of just how big a disparity there is between the viability of the only two attribute points.

Its a good, logical trade of offense (wpf) to defense (armor), with light armor having the mobility advantage to not be swarmed by plate my old friends or get the edge in duels.

I certainly do not think heavy armor needs faster swing speeds, its a buff to armor crutching and I think would disrupt some of the established balance that works good out of the melee characters.

With the current meta-balance between attributes and the way they interact with armor, agility just completely loses out. The suggestion san gave would help lower the gap between attributes and I don't think it goes far enough, but maybe it's not the right way to approach it. As it stands, though, the increased hit points high strength builds get just have too much synergy with higher armor values, while high agility builds not only don't get that synergy, they also get stiff penalties to their primary benefit (runspeed) by wearing the heavier armor.

honestly... fuck people who have less than 3WM... they deserve to have awful swing speed in exchange for their 36/3 nonsense.
I agree with matey that 0 WM builds need to be punished more, it honestly allows people to make retarded builds (especially over level 31), something I love about Rhaelys is that he posts his build in every discussion on this and talks about how broken it is.  I think it's 30/12 with max IF, 0 WM, and 2 shield at level 33?  Banded armor + great long bardiche.  And watch him play and tell me how gimped you think his footwork or swingspeeds are lmao.  Reducing the innate WPF gain with leveling and increasing the WPF per level of weapon master is definitely a good start, or something similar.

Retarded builds like my 7 power strike 9 athletics thing with only 2 WM. Let's put into perspective how shitty it is currently to not do ridiculous specs like mine or the one Rhaelys has: If I were to go 18/27 instead of 21/27 and put those seven skill points I freed up in weapon master I would be doing less damage and would be less survivable. On top of which, I'd be limiting my options in combat by having to specify further which weapons the damage bonuses I do have will go to. I've used 1handers with no points or few points of proficiency in them for a long time (typically as a sidearm for the 3-slot polearms), and by taking weapon master instead of more strength and putting those points into my chosen spec of polearms*, I'd be doing less damage with 1handers on top of lower hit points and lower polearm damage (and 2hand/fist damage, I guess). A nearly imperceptible increase in weapon speed for polearm weapons? No thanks. I'm used to using slower weapons anyway.

(click to show/hide)

I agree that something should be done about stats because of things like this, but it does cost us more options for optimal builds. I think it's fair to say "nerf low WM builds", but it's unfair to say it unless you also want to make it worthwhile to take weapon master (hint: making WM normalize to current levels of efficacy with more points invested does not make it worthwhile).

I definitely don't want to see both an increased to how WPF scales up with higher levels of weapon master, and faster weapons in general when the devs rebalance combat speed.  I know a lot of people think the game is generally way too slow, but personally I have a lot of trouble reacting sometimes to weapons that are 100+ speed, and doubly so with the one hand animations in a close distance.  Italian swords, scimitars, picks, etc.

...

Maybe I'm just bad, but I think a lot of people, probably the majority of players who aren't VISCERAL 2FASt2FURIOUS INSTAKILL REALISM DUEL pr0s, would be turned off by even more people running around with extremely fast and spammy weapons, blowing through animations to hit before some people can react.  So don't just "buff wm" and weapon speeds to a silly level imo.

I think a lot of this reasoning (that the game should be faster paced) is related to the belief that the game should be less forgiving of mistakes (not just that it's easier to make them, i.e. through faster weapon speeds,  though that's probably a big part of it). Right now, that is, some people believe it's too easy for moderately skilled players to become capable of surviving multiple mistakes in the same fight. This is on top of the likeliness that seemingly endless block cycles can happen so regularly with how the game is in general. Fights between two people can take so long sometimes because certain builds/gear setups cater so well to making mistakes, and they have so few downsides for doing so.

One thing I notice when playing native on higher combat speeds is that it doesn't just make the learning curve steeper, it makes things a lot more variable. There are more ways for you to mess up, but that applies to your opponent, as well. It even seems random, sometimes, when something happens that tips the fight in one side's favor. I don't necessarily prefer what happens there, but I can see why someone would, especially now that we're getting so many of our melee combat options taken away.

As for simply increased speed...
I remember when retirement gave a carryover wpf bonus. This was back when the level range was higher and heirlooming could give more than 1 speed as a bonus. What was the katana back then, 105 at masterwork? That coupled with over 300 wpf meant you literally did not see the weapon syncing up with the hitbox sometimes, and it made for a horrible, bad game.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 02:11:32 am by Canary »

Offline Piok

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Re: Weapon Master Buff- less wpf reduction from armor
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2012, 01:09:22 pm »
-1
Just make wpf points gain linear not progressive. Other skills are linear so why not wpf.
Actually we need lesser wpf then more. With sniper archer, pure thrower builds and uncatchable arbamy old friend buff to wpf is way to hell.
Not to mention full wpf kuyak wearing 2h spammagods (I like kuyak also and  who does not   :mrgreen: We need more kuyak awesomeness especially in heavier armor category).
So make wpf gain linear lets say 60 wpf per point. This will actually make invest to few wpf more plausible.

Offline engurrand

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Re: Weapon Master Buff- less wpf reduction from armor
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2012, 07:31:31 pm »
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I totally agree with your suggestion.

But it seems they want to buff naked spammers...

I fear this and feel it trending towards that.
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