Leeching in rageball ?

[Bulzur]

I would like to hear the thoughts from the community about this. (rageball users, feel free to comment to add your knowledge in the situation too) :

Taken from "unban:Kulin_ban" in the "closed request" :

The no weapon rule doesn't make sense for Rageball, given that it's entirely possible not to have a weapon and still be the guy who contributes the most (score wise as well). Rules updated

Thing is, there's weapon upkeep in rageball, you respawn 5 seconds after you died, in an area around where you died, and... let's face it... there's usually a lot of weapons all around. But upkeep works in eu6.
       cmp just "allowed" people to not carry any weapon in eu6, since the purpose is to score goals to gain multy, and protect your own goals not to get back to a x1. But you can still shoot down the goalie, to let your team mark with ease, kill all defenders for the same result, kill attackers to prevent them from scoring, shoot ball carrier to let your teammates reach him, etc... weaponry has a big impact too in rageball.


       Thing is, running naked is allowed in rageball, since speed is important, and between wearing an 8 armor shirt or being naked, the choice is quickly made. But you can't loom someone's else armor, enabling you to have 0 upkeep yet being resilient.
Now, you can run around spawning with no weapon, pick any on the ground, 0 upkeep if you're naked, and not been labeled as leeching. I believe there's something wrong with that, and would like to think what other "players" think.

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Yes, i never saw cmp on rageball server.

I personnaly would prefer the option 3, but since it's impossible to do (don't even know if you can code such a thing. Or maybe make weapons disapear as soon as they hit the floor ?) i'll vote 1.


Feel free to announce your thoughts, and add arguments in favor of the "Yes" or "No".
Or illuminate us with your awesome new suggestion (a place in option 4 or 5)

[Wraist]

Spawning with no weapons was always considered leeching as far as I was aware, even if you're using heavy gauntlets to punch people to death. How do you exactly retrieve the ball if the enemy has it and you have no weapons?

Also, you still have to pay upkeep for items you pick off the ground.

[Phazey]

FYI cmp plays a lot of rageball.  He has alts, you know...

Also, it's pretty easy to see if someone is leeching, because he will not be contributing to the game or trying to win.

If i see some naked guy running around, making good passes and helping out... you know, playing the game... than that should be fine.
If i see someone autorunning into a wall, it's not.

The distinction is easily made.

Also, keep in mind that the 'don't spawn with no weapons' rule is not effective against leeching at all. Someone can spawn with a stick but still be a leecher.

Bottom line: it's not about what you are wearing but what you are doing.

[Casimir]

Just because you don't score more than other players doesn't mean your contributing less.  the ability to dispossess someone or to prevent them from moving into space is very important to defensive play.  Without a weapon you are significantly less helpful to your team, unless you are playing in goal.  Really narrow minded and stupid way of looking at the subject and is only going to encourage leeching when the oh-so-active admins aren't around.

[Rainbow]

I can see the black and white rules turning gray before my eyes!!! This is scary.

[Bulzur]

Just because you don't score more than other players doesn't mean your contributing less.  the ability to dispossess someone or to prevent them from moving into space is very important to defensive play.  Without a weapon you are significantly less helpful to your team, unless you are playing in goal.  Really narrow minded and stupid way of looking at the subject and is only going to encourage leeching when the oh-so-active admins aren't around.

Exactly.

FYI cmp plays a lot of rageball.  He has alts, you know...

Also, it's pretty easy to see if someone is leeching, because he will not be contributing to the game or trying to win.

If i see some naked guy running around, making good passes and helping out... you know, playing the game... than that should be fine.
If i see someone autorunning into a wall, it's not.

The distinction is easily made.

Also, keep in mind that the 'don't spawn with no weapons' rule is not effective against leeching at all. Someone can spawn with a stick but still be a leecher.

Bottom line: it's not about what you are wearing but what you are doing.

So i can be naked with no weapon, as long as i make good passes when i have the ball and when i'm not dead ? So... 10% of the time if i lack athletics ?
What i don't like with cmp rules, is that people will say "Look, it's written IN THE RULES, that it's not considered leeching even if i don't have weapons."

Whereas i'll prefer having "No leeching, get a weapon." And, eventually, admins in the server or the population can decide that, indeed, that guy is very usefull even with his club, etc...

You know how there's people who'll jump in any loop they find, even if the great "first rule common sense" is here. I just don't like reading in the almighty rules :" OK, running around naked with no weapon in rageball as long as you make good passes."

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Dear santaclaus is a good counter-example of how to be usefull even when not carrying anything. His kicks are great. But he's also deadlier if he carries a weapon. Thus should always have one, even if he doesn't use it. (just sheath it, it's not an extra 2kg that will slow you that much that you're useless. And draw it when you carry the ball/want to kill someone/etc...)

[cmp]

Just because you don't score more than other players doesn't mean your contributing less.

I'm sure the guys who play deathmatch in the corner are convinced of that.

the ability to dispossess someone or to prevent them from moving into space is very important to defensive play.

So is the ability of shooting one from range and stopping him when there's no one close. Does that mean having a ranged weapon is mandatory?

and is only going to encourage leeching when the oh-so-active admins aren't around.

Yes, and it's gonna increase child mortality and crime rate (i.e. stating facts without figures to back them up)

So i can be naked with no weapon, as long as i make good passes when i have the ball and when i'm not dead ? So... 10% of the time if i lack athletics ?

I could claim it works 50% of the time, but then I would be pulling numbers out of my ass like you just did.

What i don't like with cmp rules, is that people will say "Look, it's written IN THE RULES, that it's not considered leeching even if i don't have weapons."

Whereas i'll prefer having "No leeching, get a weapon." And, eventually, admins in the server or the population can decide that, indeed, that guy is very usefull even with his club, etc...

Thanks for your concern, but leave rule enforcing to those who enforce the rules and have been doing so for months.

You know how there's people who'll jump in any loop they find, even if the great "first rule common sense" is here. I just don't like reading in the almighty rules :" OK, running around naked with no weapon in rageball as long as you make good passes."

Your concern is noted, but the playstyle you describe is entirely legit.

(click to show/hide)

Dear santaclaus is a good counter-example of how to be usefull even when not carrying anything. His kicks are great. But he's also deadlier if he carries a weapon. Thus should always have one, even if he doesn't use it. (just sheath it, it's not an extra 2kg that will slow you that much that you're useless. And draw it when you carry the ball/want to kill someone/etc...)

Great argument, really. A guy can get great scores even when he has a cudgel. But he's also deadlier if he carries a greatsword. Thus he should always have one... see where I'm going with it?

[Bulzur]

Just because you don't score more than other players doesn't mean your contributing less. 

I'm sure the guys who play deathmatch in the corner are convinced of that.

So you're comparing not scoring in rageball as being afk in a corner in battle ? Let's follow that train of thoughts : is someone with a 0/5 k/d ratio in battle useless ? Even though he wounded 10 ennemies, killed 5 horses, and holded 7 people ganking him (making two died from teamkilling eachother) ? No, but he has a 0/5 k/d ratio.
What's with a 0 points in rageball ? He's a good defenders, always managing to kill attackers, so that midfielders can't pass to them, and have to pass backward or loose the ball.
He's a good attacker, killing the defence/the goalie, thus enabling a good scorer to easily score. That's reality.

the ability to dispossess someone or to prevent them from moving into space is very important to defensive play

So is the ability of shooting one from range and stopping him when there's no one close. Does that mean having a ranged weapon is mandatory?

You can't agree to the fact ranged weapons, especially throwing and archery is VERY powerfull in rageball. And you'll also see that most good archers there also have a backup melee weapon, with wich they spawned. Because they know holding off one raging good opponent can help their team.
Of course it's not mandatory, but it's definitely usefull if you have one in your team.

and is only going to encourage leeching when the oh-so-active admins aren't around.

Yes, and it's gonna increase child mortality and crime rate (i.e. stating facts without figures to back them up)

Honestly, i believe it's more enclined to increase leeching than mortality. But here we see your great irony, thinking it can destroy arguments where you can't bother finding a flaw.

So i can be naked with no weapon, as long as i make good passes when i have the ball and when i'm not dead ? So... 10% of the time if i lack athletics ?

I could claim it works 50% of the time, but then I would be pulling numbers out of my ass like you just did.

Sorry for the "10%" then. Let's forget about probabilities, since you don't like them.  LEt's play with roleplaying : you're a ninja. With a katana and a 8 athletic build. You see on your side the "oh-so-good pass/scorer" with no weapon, running towards your goal, you see a tincan on your left side, slow, and doing bad passes. Who you're gonna kill ? You can waste 5 second reaching the unarmed, killing him with ease, and still be back at the defence in time.
I see no reason to leave an unarmed opponent alive if he can be dangerous. Especially since it's an easy kill. So they're efficiency is likely to drop. But they're active, so no problem, and you don't count deaths, so we can't see it's the 100th time (oh, look, another number from my ass) he died.

What i don't like with cmp rules, is that people will say "Look, it's written IN THE RULES, that it's not considered leeching even if i don't have weapons."

Whereas i'll prefer having "No leeching, get a weapon." And, eventually, admins in the server or the population can decide that, indeed, that guy is very usefull even with his club, etc...

Thanks for your concern, but leave rule enforcing to those who enforce the rules and have been doing so for months.

You mean the ones that just lost Lansamur as a good admin, saying that most of them are slacking off ? That seems like a reasonable choice.
Sorry for even trying to help, making it easier for the remainign admins...

You know how there's people who'll jump in any loop they find, even if the great "first rule common sense" is here. I just don't like reading in the almighty rules :" OK, running around naked with no weapon in rageball as long as you make good passes."

Your concern is noted, but the playstyle you describe is entirely legit.

The purpose of this thread was to know how many players find it not legit. Or even admins. You had your vote, and even if i know how useless most polls are, i'd still like to know how many are also sadenned by that "new" rule.

(click to show/hide)

Dear santaclaus is a good counter-example of how to be usefull even when not carrying anything. His kicks are great. But he's also deadlier if he carries a weapon. Thus should always have one, even if he doesn't use it. (just sheath it, it's not an extra 2kg that will slow you that much that you're useless. And draw it when you carry the ball/want to kill someone/etc...)

Great argument, really. A guy can get great scores even when he has a cudgel. But he's also deadlier if he carries a greatsword. Thus he should always have one... see where I'm going with it?

I never spoke about a guy who can get great scores with no weapon though. Since i doubt it'll happen.
But the point was, you sometimes want to be effective, and have more fun being usefull to your team. A weapon gives you that. And it's not like it's such a burden.






Finally, if you don't see any problems with people in rageball going naked and unarmed, then i'll just make a topic asking for a decrease of gold gain. It's already super easy gaining quick xp and gold in rageball when playing as a team, if you also don't have to worry about repairs, then it's a real gold mine.
And not balanced at all with battle, or even siege. (Siege do give good rewards to big organized team, but the organized team brings expensive weapons and armor for that result). Since you don't need gear for rageball, then reduce incoming gold. Money sink is needed, but giving away free gold won't resolve it either.



PS : Sorry for the big delay, i actually pressed "send" instead of a "preview" after doing all thoses quotes, so... long edit.
)

[Casimir]

Having no ranged weaponry limits your ability to dispossess people, having no weapon at all almost completely removes it.

Whatever, its your mod and you'll do what you want with it as you please.  I'm just pointing out how it could backfire.

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Yes, and it's gonna increase child mortality and crime rate (i.e. stating facts without figures to back them up)

Making comments like this isn't going to help a constructive discussion either is it?

[cmp]

So you're comparing not scoring in rageball as being afk in a corner in battle ? Let's follow that train of thoughts : is someone with a 0/5 k/d ratio in battle useless ? Even though he wounded 10 ennemies, killed 5 horses, and holded 7 people ganking him (making two died from teamkilling eachother) ? No, but he has a 0/5 k/d ratio.
What's with a 0 points in rageball ? He's a good defenders, always managing to kill attackers, so that midfielders can't pass to them, and have to pass backward or loose the ball.
He's a good attacker, killing the defence/the goalie, thus enabling a good scorer to easily score. That's reality.

I kinda disagree, because when I played as defender most of the time I was mid-scoreboard (catching the ball from enemy). Sure, you can get unlucky (or lucky, if the ball doesn't even come in your zone) and get zero, but many of those are useless deathmatch players.
I don't really get the point of the comparison, since score is actually meant to show who contributes more (of course I am aware that it's not a perfect meter), while kills is just... kills.

You can't agree to the fact ranged weapons, especially throwing and archery is VERY powerfull in rageball. And you'll also see that most good archers there also have a backup melee weapon, with wich they spawned. Because they know holding off one raging good opponent can help their team.
Of course it's not mandatory, but it's definitely usefull if you have one in your team.

Are you saying that archers are very useful or that they aren't very useful? Apologies if I missed something, but I don't really understand what you're trying to say.

Honestly, i believe it's more enclined to increase leeching than mortality. But here we see your great irony, thinking it can destroy arguments where you can't bother finding a flaw.

Well

ar·gu·ment
A course of reasoning aimed at demonstrating truth or falsehood

I think we can both agree that the quoted sentence is not exactly that...

Sorry for the "10%" then. Let's forget about probabilities, since you don't like them.  LEt's play with roleplaying : you're a ninja. With a katana and a 8 athletic build. You see on your side the "oh-so-good pass/scorer" with no weapon, running towards your goal, you see a tincan on your left side, slow, and doing bad passes. Who you're gonna kill ? You can waste 5 second reaching the unarmed, killing him with ease, and still be back at the defence in time.
I see no reason to leave an unarmed opponent alive if he can be dangerous. Especially since it's an easy kill. So they're efficiency is likely to drop. But they're active, so no problem, and you don't count deaths, so we can't see it's the 100th time (oh, look, another number from my ass) he died.

What if the guy passes the ball, like he's supposed to do? Now he's likely faster than the ninja, and the ninja just wasted his time chasing him...

You mean the ones that just lost Lansamur as a good admin, saying that most of them are slacking off ? That seems like a reasonable choice.
Sorry for even trying to help, making it easier for the remainign admins...

Let's not make this thread about drama/finger-pointing, shall we?
And your help is appreciated, but I disagree that it'll make it easier (or harder, or anything).

The purpose of this thread was to know how many players find it not legit. Or even admins. You had your vote, and even if i know how useless most polls are, i'd still like to know how many are also sadenned by that "new" rule.

And you're free to do so, like I'm free to answer you.

I never spoke about a guy who can get great scores with no weapon though. Since i doubt it'll happen.
But the point was, you sometimes want to be effective, and have more fun being usefull to your team. A weapon gives you that. And it's not like it's such a burden.

What you and many others don't seem to understand is that the rule didn't go from "must spawn with a useful weapon" to "no need to spawn with a weapon", but it went from "must spawn with ANY weapon"  to "no need to spawn with a weapon". Those who used their weapon will still use their weapon (or one from the ground), and their effectiveness will be unchanged. Those who leeched with a useless peasant weapon will now leech without a weapon, and their effectiveness will be unchanged.

Finally, if you don't see any problems with people in rageball going naked and unarmed, then i'll just make a topic asking for a decrease of gold gain. It's already super easy gaining quick xp and gold in rageball when playing as a team, if you also don't have to worry about repairs, then it's a real gold mine.
And not balanced at all with battle, or even siege. (Siege do give good rewards to big organized team, but the organized team brings expensive weapons and armor for that result). Since you don't need gear for rageball, then reduce incoming gold. Money sink is needed, but giving away free gold won't resolve it either.

Urist has been working on decreasing gold gain and making the use of heavy gear more worthwhile for a while now (including the removal of upkeep).

Making comments like this isn't going to help a constructive discussion either is it?

No, I know that it doesn't. But neither did yours, did it?

[Bulzur]

I still don't see how anyone with no weapon is more efficient than someone with ANY weapon such a club. But meh.

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Except is someone makes a STF with no skill except athletics. But meh... I'm sure such a goalie would be insane. Far away kicks, top agi for best acceleration. But at the moment, even goalie understand it's not "fair" for all their teammates to have weapons while they don't, so they usually have one. And i deeply thank them for that.
And... after experience, even him needs a melee weapon to block when he goes outside his circle, to reach a faraway ball, or such.

I understand your points, and since Urist is working on lowering gold gain, and amking it worthwhile actually having armored, i'll see how this works out first.

As for the arguments, i'm pretty sure there's one wich calls experience. And in mine, i haven't seen a single guy (except Kulin_ban, but that was new) spawning without a weapon AND not using one. I only see leechers, spawning without one AND INSTANTLY picking up another one on the floor.


And... thanks for the answers. It's appreciated to see you active and taking your time to respond.^^

PS : Of course, range is SUPER powerfull in rageball. So many unarmored targets, tatar arrows and horn bow is... horribly strong. Same for throwing.

[Casimir]

You know my comment has far more truth behind it than your irrational suggestions.

Pointless discussion is pointless.

[RandomDude]

I just think that if some people should have to pay upkeep for weapons, then other people should too.

I usually play rageball in a way to help the team.

Sometimes I'll play defence and kill as many attackers as i can, or just mark some1.

Sometimes i'll go near the enemy goal and do the same, waiting for the ball.

It just depends on what the team needs.

There's no question that some guys play rageball to TDM. There's also no question that half the enemy team being permanently dead makes it a lot easier to defend and attack.

Indicating that passing/shooting/scoring is the majority of rageball isnt quite correct in my opinion.

[Bulzur]

Having played eu6 tonight.

Feedback:
It's fun to play with Cirilla and Xynox. I love my archer.
Humm, nevermind that, so :
Saw nobody being usefull without any weapon.
Saw people spawning naked and unarmed then instantly pick up a weapon on the ground.

I'm fine with the naked part, you sacrifice armor for mobility, and are still usefull. But the "i won't bother paying upkeep when others are paying it for me, let's loot.", i do have problems.


Also, for the scoring part : As an archer midfielder or defender, i usually do have a good score, thanks to hiting ball carrier and making decisive passes. But the moments i find myself really usefull is when i headshot an ennemy just before he kicks/grab the ball, allowing my teammates to take it (paf, they get 2points for being in the right place). But, i still find the scoring system pretty decent. Just definitely not perfect, and it's not because someone scores when there's no goalie, but two teammates behind him, that he especially deserved his 10 points.
Finally, fun fact : Goalie getting 8 points for an active catch of the ball AFTER that the ennemy scored.^^

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

Really narrow minded and stupid way of looking at the subject and is only going to encourage leeching when the oh-so-active admins aren't around.

Hey man, just wanna say, OMG! OMG! OMG! You're right! Now I can finally leech in rageball without worrying about the 0gold repair from my practice dagger!!!
I can just run naked and I'll never get the 0gold repairs from my practice dagger! YOU'VE SO SAVED ME FROM LOSING 0GOLD! THANKS BRO!

BTW: TO GUY ABOVE, YOU STILL PAY UPKEEP FOR WEAPONS YOU PICK UP.