Nerfing: Crying or Justified

[Tomas_of_Miles]

Ok. I'm not going to say anything is the gospel truth here. BUT.

There is a cycle of nerfing here, first we had the whole tincans, upkeep etc. Fairenough? Sure, some people wear heavy armour if they have the money, but the game is a lot more balnced now. Well done.

Ranged dudes could fire too quickly and too accurately, this has been adjusted, well done! As a dedicated xbower most builds, I am ok with that, it makes sense.

However, people need to think more before they go calling for NERF because they may not have experienced the playing style of the person who killed them and just call nerf because their build can't deal with another persons.

For example, horse archery, a completely valid and effective tactic, frowned on by most. Imo, it is fine as it is now, the horse archery skill has been nerfed and it is still playable. If you are a melee class, there is your downfall, if you wanted to be able to hit people from far away, you should have chosen a ranged build. If you don't have a shield, you need to remember you pwn in close quarters. Don't whine. Instead, if this is a team game, protect those of your team who have the capabilities to strike at those you can't.

Throwing: high damage, faster than archery and xbowing(generally, some archers can outshoot a heavy thrower). Ok so it is high damage. The weapon can be dodged, and is actually very inaccurate. Shield build? Maybe block the line of sight to other less well protected allies so you can all advance and gank the thrower.

Basically, when calling for a nerf you need a bit of empathy, and be able to distinguish between what is a good player using a clever build effectively, and what is actually completely OP.

P.S. Crushthrough weapons are never used with shields. Shoot the dudes! Or run away. And let someone else shoot. Or use your superior speed and range to kill them first.

[Templar_Ratigan]

Sometimes it is justified but usually it's a case of, it's easier to whine than to actually put facts to your opinions.

Often people will call for a nerf on something which they have never played or tried. Not always the case, but often it is.

[UrLukur]

(click to show/hide)

Ok. I'm not going to say anything is the gospel truth here. BUT.

There is a cycle of nerfing here, first we had the whole tincans, upkeep etc. Fairenough? Sure, some people wear heavy armour if they have the money, but the game is a lot more balnced now. Well done.

Ranged dudes could fire too quickly and too accurately, this has been adjusted, well done! As a dedicated xbower most builds, I am ok with that, it makes sense.

However, people need to think more before they go calling for NERF because they may not have experienced the playing style of the person who killed them and just call nerf because their build can't deal with another persons.

For example, horse archery, a completely valid and effective tactic, frowned on by most. Imo, it is fine as it is now, the horse archery skill has been nerfed and it is still playable. If you are a melee class, there is your downfall, if you wanted to be able to hit people from far away, you should have chosen a ranged build. If you don't have a shield, you need to remember you pwn in close quarters. Don't whine. Instead, if this is a team game, protect those of your team who have the capabilities to strike at those you can't.

Throwing: high damage, faster than archery and xbowing(generally, some archers can outshoot a heavy thrower). Ok so it is high damage. The weapon can be dodged, and is actually very inaccurate. Shield build? Maybe block the line of sight to other less well protected allies so you can all advance and gank the thrower.

Basically, when calling for a nerf you need a bit of empathy, and be able to distinguish between what is a good player using a clever build effectively, and what is actually completely OP.

P.S. Crushthrough weapons are never used with shields. Shoot the dudes! Or run away. And let someone else shoot. Or use your superior speed and range to kill them first.

Except they can just equip the shield when they approach melee.

[Kalam]

Ultimately, I believe cRPG is balanced. More balanced than native, in fact. As someone (Thomek, maybe?) once said, the fact that everyone is whining about everything is a sign that things are pretty balanced.

[Dravic]

Throwing should be nerfed, and that's the only thing i want. why? I have no problem with weapons, that hit me, if i know that enemy had to have a "player skill" and he knew where he was aiming.

Because you never know, where that throwing weap is going to land. Throwing is too much inaccurate. Should be really accurate, so random people that dont know how to throw things won't be killing due to luck. Now, it is:

Skilled people know +/- where to shot, but it depends on luck where whithin reticule will fly your weapon. Random, unskilled players know, that they can't aim with throwing, so they just throw and... due to luck, they land a hit and kill people. Wise people rarely can dodge throwing weapon, because they never know where is that weapon going to fly.

Should be:

Skilled people know, how to shot, so they are killing machines (but with that comes: decreased ammo of all throwing weapons by 1, nerfed dmg by 20%-25%). Random people won't be able to throw accurately, if they dont know how fast and far their weapon flies. Also, if person aims at you, you should know, that his/her weapon will fly at you, so you can dodge right or left, not like now: person aims exactly at you, you dodge left, and weapon magically flies at you due to huge reticule and a bit of thrower's luck.

[Gorath]

Sometimes it is justified but usually it's a case of, it's easier to whine than to actually put facts to your opinions.

Often people will call for a nerf on something which they have never played or tried. Not always the case, but often it is.

Biggest issue I have with most of the threads are a distinct lack of any mathematical backing to support their claims about the mechanics when it comes to their cries of OP/UP/Buff/Nerf.
When talking about weapons especially.  Half the time there's no direct comparison to the other weapons of that type, function, cost, etc.  Just some cry of "This is OP because I die to it alot!".

We have some fairly good discussions about actual game mechanics here somewhat often, it's just that it gets drowned out by the chorus of plebs screaming verbal fappitude all over the front page.

[Tears of Destiny]

I support this thread 100%.

[Templar_Ratigan]

Biggest issue I have with most of the threads are a distinct lack of any mathematical backing to support their claims about the mechanics when it comes to their cries of OP/UP/Buff/Nerf.
When talking about weapons especially.  Half the time there's no direct comparison to the other weapons of that type, function, cost, etc.  Just some cry of "This is OP because I die to it alot!".

We have some fairly good discussions about actual game mechanics here somewhat often, it's just that it gets drowned out by the chorus of plebs screaming verbal fappitude all over the front page.

Yeah that sums it up pretty well.

[Tomas_of_Miles]

Throwing should be nerfed, and that's the only thing i want. why? I have no problem with weapons, that hit me, if i know that enemy had to have a "player skill" and he knew where he was aiming.

Because you never know, where that throwing weap is going to land. Throwing is too much inaccurate. Should be really accurate, so random people that dont know how to throw things won't be killing due to luck. Now, it is:

Skilled people know +/- where to shot, but it depends on luck where whithin reticule will fly your weapon. Random, unskilled players know, that they can't aim with throwing, so they just throw and... due to luck, they land a hit and kill people. Wise people rarely can dodge throwing weapon, because they never know where is that weapon going to fly.

Should be:

Skilled people know, how to shot, so they are killing machines (but with that comes: decreased ammo of all throwing weapons by 1, nerfed dmg by 20%-25%). Random people won't be able to throw accurately, if they dont know how fast and far their weapon flies. Also, if person aims at you, you should know, that his/her weapon will fly at you, so you can dodge right or left, not like now: person aims exactly at you, you dodge left, and weapon magically flies at you due to huge reticule and a bit of thrower's luck.

The thing is that is low level throwing, and the fact that the reticule is larger actually makes it harder to aim. I had a 1h/xbow/thrower build last gen, and I found throwing paid off more when I invested points in throwing and power throw. When I was standing still, like bows and xbows, I could actually aim, it was just harder because the arc of the weapon was more dramatic, like a grenade. Ansatsusha was a thrower before all these patches, haven't seen him for ages, and he used to get headshots consistently with throwing daggers. People have forgotten what it was like before all these patches and it is a lot more balanced. The only thing I have against throwing is the damage against high level armour, but I suppose you get less ammo than bows and arrows...
Anyway my point is have you tried being a thrower? It is harder than being an xbower or cav player from my experience.

[Dravic]

Yeah, i had pure thrower 14PT/105(or something like that, 0 WM).

It was easy mode. Seriously, a man could do some steps to me, i just grabed javelin and threw it at his face/chest and he was dead (1 hit 1 death).

That was time AFTER patch and you know... i retired from that easymode to a 2h, and my sister made an alt for herself to play... she is doing well with her 12PT11PS. Even tho she cant manual block.

O, and remember what i said: throwing is TOO INACCURATE. Even noob can have some luck to shot 10 athletics ninja even tho ninja "should" dodge weapon. Thrower just didnt knew where is he throwing!

Thats the point: you kill anyone with a bit of luck. A BIT. In opposite, SKILLED throwers cant be sure where actually are they going to throw stuff, so their SKILL doesnt really matter compared to luck of random throwers.

[Thomek]

Crying for nerfs is a part of the continuous cycle of feedback to the devs.

Of course since it's a long time since patch there are no new arguments anymore, I even rarely bother to read the balance section anymore..
@Gorath, there is very little known about the mathematics behind game mechanics.. That was always a problem in these discussions. Anyway the classes played by the playerbase is always changing and so does the game experience.. Lately I've seen a lot of crossbows, far far more than archers i.ex. Some time ago it was throwing that dominated. Archers have had their time in cRPG, Horse Archers, and cav too.

If you played long enough, you get a good feel for the power of things, and their actual usefulness in battle.. Something which is not simply a mathematical question, but also a question of the idea of the playstyle. (I.ex HA is powerful by the IDEA of the class, Bar mace is powerful because of range+speed+crushblock - because range has numerous advantages in duels)

Right now it's just 3-4 things that I really find OP

1. Bar mace (Especially heirloomed with high str chars)
2. Throwing at high levels (Throwing (pthrow) scales bad, too weak at low levels, too powerful at high way)
3. Side sword (Too fast for its damage and range, very close to 2h performance)

I have balance issues with some weapons that are simply superior like the greatswords, as I think that most weapons above a certain level should be "equal" in power. (Power I mean a mushy term describing overall usefulness and efficiency in battle) They should not behave equally though, but have unique characteristics..

[justme]

speed of some loomed horse maybe?

[Heroin]

I support this thread 100%.

I support this guy's comments until further notice.

[Were_M_Eye]

I just played this games a few weeks, but only after 2 days i realized that most cries for nerfs was made because they met their counter. If you got paper then rock is totaly fine, but scissors, omg scissors got to be nerfed.



ps. I play cav so pikes got to be nerfed 

[Vibe]

Imho yeah, cRPG is actually pretty well balanced. Maybe throwing is a bit annoying and powerful, but still.