Author Topic: What is the point of upkeep?  (Read 12266 times)

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Offline Latrinenkobold

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Re: What is the point of upkeep?
« Reply #105 on: April 25, 2012, 11:16:25 pm »
0
I am giving you the actual facts of how the system currently works.
And again, you say something thats simply wrong. You still donĀ“t get it, do you?

Offline Shamlow

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Re: What is the point of upkeep?
« Reply #106 on: April 25, 2012, 11:16:54 pm »
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Quote
Be gone already.

Leave the thread then, you are not giving any kind of input in the discussion. You don't have to read this thread, you don't have to post in it. I'm not holding a gun to your head, you are just trolling because you have nothing better to do.

Offline Brrrak

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Re: What is the point of upkeep?
« Reply #107 on: April 25, 2012, 11:17:30 pm »
+3
Welp, I've seen how this thread has involved.  I could read consistently from page 3-6, start skimming on page 7, and finally, on this page (8), there's fuck all to be read.

Shamlow, quit responding to constructive arguments and others' attempts to help you with ad hominem arguments.  If you believe that upkeep completely ruins your game experience, someone already posted the link to the merc mod.  The point of this mod is for you to have fun, and if you aren't having fun, and aren't willing to experiment to see how you'll get the most fun out of the mod, then it's obviously not for you.

However, ever counterargument about upkeep not being useless and not being too much of an issue for people who can properly manage their money is valid.  There is no reason not to do well and still make a profit beyond one's own unwillingness to learn the game, learn the upkeep system, and use some problem solving.

Regardless of however you decide to continue (or not continue) playing cRPG, please do not resort to angry ad hominem attacks at other people, and the default internet cry of 'you don't agree with me, you're a troll' in order to try to get your point across.  If your point hasn't stuck, people are either A) too embedded in their opinions or (most likely), B) know what they are talking about.

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Offline POOPHAMMER

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Re: What is the point of upkeep?
« Reply #108 on: April 25, 2012, 11:19:13 pm »
+3
Leave the thread then, you are not giving any kind of input in the discussion. You don't have to read this thread, you don't have to post in it. I'm not holding a gun to your head, you are just trolling because you have nothing better to do.

Trolling? I was posting legit advice in here for you to follow at one point until I felt the need to edit it out as it did nothing but make you more angry.
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Offline Shamlow

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Re: What is the point of upkeep?
« Reply #109 on: April 25, 2012, 11:46:33 pm »
-1
Ok, Warlord I don't understand why this is so hard for you.

If you have a level 1 and a level 31 completely naked, they will earn the same amount of gold. They will have the same amount of upkeep.

If you put the same weapon in their hands, they will still have the same amount of upkeep.

The only difference is that the level 1 has ZERO gold, and the level 31 has x amount that he has accumulated during his 31 levels of play.

The reason that upkeep was put in the game, as stated by the Dev, and several people in this thread. Was because everyone ended up in full plate/horses at level 31 because there was nothing else to buy. They hit the top of the food chain so to speak. Now I'm sure that there were still people not in full plate, because of preference of game play, but that is not relevant to the argument. The problem was everyone was in the same(maybe best) gear all the time, and they didn't like it as far as it effect balance(maybe boredom).

The problem didn't arise as those players were leveling as much because they were actively spending the gold they earned. Now I'm sure it did start to add up at some point along the way, maybe late 20s.

So, upkeep gets added. You have to pay to wear certain types/levels of gear.( Something I am ok with) You are now taxing players EQUALLY on items, the problem with that is low level players are not equal to high level players. Low levels have not accumulated any amount of wealth, they have to run around naked for X amount of hours, doing almost nothing. This is not fun, this does not make people want to play the game. This is a huge problem with this mod, go read the reviews on any gaming site and you will see editors/reviewers and comments by actually players stating this. New players are severally discourage from playing this game, and one unnecessary aspect of that is charging them upkeep.

I have played this game for like two weeks, I'm not going to give up because it's hard or necessarily hard. I like the combat/combat system, I like that it rewards players/people that use tactics. I like the maps, I like the different mods, I even like vanilla.

I have tried other mods, and I truly think this is the best one. The problem is you don't give most game players a chance to enjoy it. Let them level up without upkeep, let them get to the max level a little easier. This doesn't hurt anything or anyone, it will keep more players interested in the game.

For a game that I think requires more "skill" to be good at, I don't understand why any of you would be worried about allowing low level players to get to a competitive level faster. If you have a year of experience over someone, even if they have the same gear you should have a significant advantage over them. If not, maybe they are just better than you.

I am fine with keeping upkeep how it is at level 31, it's clearly working. I don't see 180 people in a 200 person game running around in full plate. That's good if that is how they are balancing it. At least they put effort into that, that means maybe they are willing to put effort into other things to make this game better.

All I am saying, is you should reduce if not do away with upkeep for people who hardly know what the fuck they are doing in this game. Give them a chance to get into the game, let them enjoy it.

Jesus Christ with you people, do you not want to try to make things better? This type of game is one of the only times you will get a chance, you are dealing with a group of people/players that coded a mod for fun. I guarantee they are willing to make the game more fun and appealing to everyone, not just new players. You can't just think about yourself all the time, "Like of I went through hell levels as a peasant not doing shit for x amount of hours, they should too maybe you should think, "Wow I don't see why I had to deal with this unnecessarily, while trying to level, while trying to learn, while trying to save money, while just trying to hit someone for damage.

Come on people, use your heads.


Offline zottlmarsch

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Re: What is the point of upkeep?
« Reply #110 on: April 25, 2012, 11:50:17 pm »
0
some guy who has been here for two weeks giving us the history of crpg and how to make it better,  :rolleyes:

these noobs don't know how easy they got it these days

« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 11:52:28 pm by zottlmarsch »
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Offline micah243

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Re: What is the point of upkeep?
« Reply #111 on: April 26, 2012, 12:07:31 am »
0
Thread is so long i only read the first 3 pages but here is my say... Shamlow, or whatever, you do not understand very much about this game yet man.... I am Gen 2 and when i retired as a level 1 i was still able to get kills on people because upkeep keeps a lot of people from wearing God gear. Honestly what you are not seeing is that upkeep is necessary. As a new player you will not have enough money for top tier stuff without upkeep anyway. What upkeep does is keep the MAJORITY (I say majority since there are some people with such large gold reserves money is no object to them, but those people are few and far between) of players from wearing full plate armor. The upkeep on that is insane. So before you start saying that high generation players have an advantage because of upkeep you need to look at it as a whole. I remember when CRPG was older and you literally had a game full of people wearing plate on plated charges. Upkeep on the items that you should be using as a Gen 1 is nothing compared to theirs. Upkeep affects everyone and without it the game would be completely unbalanced towards new people. Do you think it would be a new player friendly environment if as soon as you joined to server in your peasant gear you were confronted by a whole team full of plate wearing cav on plated chargers? No it would be literally impossible for you to do ANYTHING. In short... you are the retard my friend. Learn a little about the history of this mod before you start criticizing something so vital.

Offline BlindGuy

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Re: What is the point of upkeep?
« Reply #112 on: April 26, 2012, 12:08:45 am »
+1
Level 1 characters don't need a money sink, they already have one.

This and your other posts...I shake my head at how you and I are of the same species...


READ, and UNDERSTAND the WORDS, for their MEANING, and then comprehend the end result AS A WHOLE:

If you use gear with a TOTAL value UNDER 25k, you will make money.

If you use gear with a TOTAL value exceeding 25k, you will see the following: 25-30k gear, you might break even, as you push the TOTAL value upwards, you will start to lose more and more money.

This loss of money is INDEPENDANT from your level, your generation, the size of your penis, everything.

THE ONLY THING that can affect how much you make, or lose, is your current multiplier. If you ARE wearing gear over 30k total worth, you should be doing so because you are competent and confidant enough that you are going to secure the victory for your team, thus gaining you a multiplier and ensuring you have a larger income for the time you spend in expensive gear.

LEVEL 1's are NEVER going to be affected by upkeep, because at level 1 you do NOT have the STRENGH or AGILITY needed to use any expenive gear at any rate.

IF as you level up your first gen, you buy gear that will not make you any money, or infact will lose you money, YOU SHOULD NOT USE IT. It wont make you a better player, or a more effective one, the only thing that will happen is players will target you, because you are a threat, or rather, you appear to be threat. Once you have reached retirement age, and you are convinced wearing super expensive gear, you can simply sell your heirloom point. This will give you time to wear that gear, without running out of cash.

That isnt the path I would take, nor anyone who enjoys the game for it's combat system or progression, but many do that. This WILL mean that your secong generation you will be shot. A lot. By archers who, like in reality, are peasants with wood and string, and pay no upkeep, and pewpew you to death in your shiney expensive gear. Thats what THEY LOVE.

The trick to spending time in this game in finding a level of gear you can maintain. Most everyone you see wears gear that matches their playstyle OR abilities. If you see players who wear plate armour ALL the time, you must understand that they CAN, not because they have some secret stash of gold, but because they are able to use their skills in combination with their gear to secure themselves a multiplier, most of the time. When a player uses very expensive gear and isnt a very capable player, it is soon evident, and they are soon broke. The system works, in that if you are enough of a badass to win, you are more able to do that because you are making more money. New/crappy players should just thank their stars when they get put on a team with these players, and organise a gang kill with their teammakes and team ranged to destroy these high ability players when they oppose them.

This is a game balanced between realism and fun play, and the realistic part is that warriors with countless battles in their past have enormous experience, they are tough fighters, they have a great understanding of their weapons and armour, and have mastered the greatest weapon there is, their BRAIN.

Now try and use yours.
I hope this has helped you to understand how random, backward, and ignorant you are being.


Oh, PS: When I started this game, we were ALL peasants, and we had to fight as a massive gang, because gold and XP was earned by killing or being NEAR a kill. No upkeep. This was a fun game, but it was NOT this game: if you had joined that game at this point, you would not post silly rage threads on here, you would just have quit, because we all had the armour we wanted, as an archer I walked around in heavy armour, my longbow and my bastard sword, and I killed everyone, all the time. So did everyone else. We were all overpowered to fuck, with insane amounts of WPF, crazy levels, and most of us had horses too. ALL you could do as a peasant then was stand around, and hope to die in a close enough spot to the centre of the carnage to gain a little gold. It took weeks to get a weapon, months to get armour, and was the least noob friendly game I can imagine short of someone who has never played an FPS being dropped into counterstrike and told to defend A long.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 12:14:56 am by BlindGuy »
I don't know enough

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Offline micah243

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Re: What is the point of upkeep?
« Reply #113 on: April 26, 2012, 12:09:29 am »
+2
Honestly a mod should just lock this thread. This guy is such a retarded close minded troll that his point of view really doesnt need to be heard. He has NO idea what it is actually like without upkeep... Just lock the damn thread.

Offline Kafein

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Re: What is the point of upkeep?
« Reply #114 on: April 26, 2012, 12:09:51 am »
+1
Shamlow, to be very clear :

If I wear 0 upkeep equipment at level 30+ at x1, I win 50 gold per tick.

If I wear 0 upkeep equipment at level 1 at x1, I win 50 gold per tick.

If I wear 5k+ upkeep equipment at level 30+, I lose money.

If I wear 5k+ upkeep equipment at low level (that allows me to use that in the first place), I lose the same amount of money.

The only way k/d could influence your income is that it influences the winning chances of your team, which is hardly true as the autobalancer is very far from perfect (so most matches are won because one team crushes the other) and their are 100ish other players on the server that influence the outcome too. Also, good players are teamswitched around.

This adresses one part of your claims.

The other one seems to be

Quote
If I have 1 million dollars, and taxes take 10,000 away, who fucking cares. If I have 20,000 dollars, and taxes take 10,000 I HAVE A PROBLEM. This is the way the current upkeep system works. This is hurting the the POOR PEOPLE(LEVEL1/GEN1) in this analogy more than the RICH PEOPLE(LEVEL 31s).

This is false. You do not earn money by leveling up. Most level 31+ people actually are broke because they can't retire and sell loom points.

Furthermore, upkeep hits everyone the same way. That someone with 1M gold would be less afflicted than someone with 20k in bank is a twist of the human brain.



The best way to minimize your upkeep and win money fast is the same at all levels : light armor, cheap weapon, no horse. The only special thing for new characters is that you have to gather a sum of gold you will use as a buffer for upkeep. Upkeep is random so there are times you will pay a lot and at other times you won't. You need a buffer to avoid going bankrupt when you have a streak of bad luck. That's also the main reason you see a lot of "top-scorers" running around in gear that seems impossible to upkeep for you : they have a big gold buffer, and maybe they earned money through the marketplace.


« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 12:11:22 am by Kafein »

Offline micah243

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Re: What is the point of upkeep?
« Reply #115 on: April 26, 2012, 12:11:15 am »
0
Kafein and blindguy, seriously read this guys posts. His point of view will not change regardless of how much sense you talk to him.

Offline Shamlow

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Re: What is the point of upkeep?
« Reply #116 on: April 26, 2012, 12:12:04 am »
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1. Before level 20, you can hardly do much things for your team, so basically you wear peasant gear, which means you already should have gained a reserve of at least 20 k gold.

2. At level 20+ you can start wearing medium gear and help your team, and even with gear worth 20-30 k you make money.

That is my point. Why do new players who are already trying to learn the game have to be hindered so hard, for no reason.

You are agreeing with exactly what I am saying. You are telling new players, Hey, you are useless, run around in peasant clothes dieing all over the place for X amount of time, basically so high level players can feel better about themselves.

I am saying low level players don't matter, they can't do anything. That is the same thing you have been saying. The reason is because they have so much against them already, why do we have to slow them down even more? What does it matter if before level 20 they can wear mid level, hell even the low level gear without slowing down their income?

Why is everyone so afraid of or against helping low level players? Do you not want more people to play this game? Seriously.

Offline micah243

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Re: What is the point of upkeep?
« Reply #117 on: April 26, 2012, 12:17:23 am »
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Dude you are just so freaking retarded. Are you not reading other posts????? I wear 31,000 in gear and i MAKE MONEY at gen 2. I get basically no bonus in money making at Gen 2. I am wearing badass effective gear and I still make money. You CAN make money wearing decent gear even as a new player!

Have you ever played literally any other online MMO type game? Does WoW start you out as a super rich badass??! or can 99% of the guys you meet own you and buy all your shit for pennies to them? Where would any satisfaction from leveling up come from if playing did not get you better gear? Wow... idk what is wrong with you.

Offline micah243

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Re: What is the point of upkeep?
« Reply #118 on: April 26, 2012, 12:19:27 am »
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Furthermore.. At a low level your stats are so low that it doesnt matter if you can afford full plate! you can not wear it! or even if you can, your stats are still so low that you can still be killed easily!

Offline Kafein

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Re: What is the point of upkeep?
« Reply #119 on: April 26, 2012, 12:19:41 am »
+2
Kafein and blindguy, seriously read this guys posts. His point of view will not change regardless of how much sense you talk to him.

I think he does care and wants to understand seeing how long his posts become.

And the only thing he doesn't get is that making a buffer takes two hours at worst.



Also, the peasant stage is a necessary step in your cRPG "career". It's the only thing that survived from the golden age of cRPG and the only thing that keeps this mod from becoming another dull ultra-competitive MP action game. Peasants don't play with the same rules, you aren't supposed to kill people in the first place, and you shouldn't assume you are forced to in order to have fun playing. Try to survive, it's just as satisfying. Also, I can virtually guarantee your first kill streaks will be much more satisfying than if everybody had the same level and same equipment value.