Author Topic: Replace upkeep system with equipment limiting system that works!  (Read 2333 times)

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Offline Joker86

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-8
Hi there!

Short version:

- Remove upkeep
- Introduce "wealth", a value of equipment you are allowed to wear, similar to the native system
- Introduce some kind of "prosperity" skill, which allows you to raise your wealth above the minimum level

-> if you want to use better gear, you have to spend skill points on it, creating a certain balance between skills and equipment in the game.


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« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 10:02:14 am by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Elmokki

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Re: Replace upkeep system with equipment limiting system that works!
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2012, 09:59:57 pm »
+1
- it's luck based. I don't like random chances.

This argument is retarded.

Yes, it's based on luck if you get repairs on a particular round, but the amount of ticks you get playing cRPG for let's say, 10 hours, is high enough to essentially make it a thing you can consider to be non-random and static.

Sadly people don't understand this, which is no surprise when these forums are full of people failing at basic math things.

Offline Dezilagel

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Re: Replace upkeep system with equipment limiting system that works!
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2012, 10:07:15 pm »
+3
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Seriously though, I doubt this'd work.

1. Heirlooms. So you heirloomed an expensive item but don't want to be a whimp? Sucks to be you!

2. It'd KILL versatility. No fake peasants, no ridiculous shit/builds. Boring. Besides, the absolutely most expensive stuff (super-heavy cav) isn't even that good.

3. Lots of work to solve a problem that doesn't really exist imho. The upkeep system isn't perfect, but it works alright. It could be a bit less random for all I care, but if you have a solid buffer it'll even out anyway.

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Re: Replace upkeep system with equipment limiting system that works!
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2012, 10:22:37 pm »
+1
cRPG have upkeep :?: didn't even notice tbh...

Must suck to fail at the market i guess  :lol:
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Replace upkeep system with equipment limiting system that works!
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2012, 10:31:14 pm »
+2
The upkeep system precisely works now because it stopped working.

Upkeep was introduced mid January 2011 and was horrible at that time, but sort of a necessity for some people that tought expensive equipment was giving unfair advantages. It got a lot better when you could actually mitigate it using the marketplace.


My point is, the less upkeep the better as equipment price stopped being seriously taken into account by the balancing team. Probably due to this :
Quote
you can't balance things by the time (=gold) needed to achieve them, because time is an endless ressource
Expensive equipment already wasn't that much better, but now it has been nerfed over and over again, down to roughly the same levels as cheap and medium equipment.

The current balance sort of works because it slowly kicked upkeep out of the scheme, replacing it by a (more or less) consistent balancing of all items based on ingame stats, so that choosing whatever is costlier isn't a good idea.

It is this development that actually killed variety and character development (you can call it grind for all I care, I don't see anything wrong with it). Everybody can buy and use every item. Items completely lost their value, which was something very important. Being attached to your character is just as valuable as the gameplay or the social interactions in MP games.

I support Joker's suggestion as it would IMO increase the effective variety of characters, add a very welcome rpg element and get rid of a very flawed mechanic that lost both it's reason to exist and it's effectivity, except for new players (great).

Offline Joker86

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Re: Replace upkeep system with equipment limiting system that works!
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2012, 10:36:28 pm »
0
This argument is retarded.

Yes, it's based on luck if you get repairs on a particular round, but the amount of ticks you get playing cRPG for let's say, 10 hours, is high enough to essentially make it a thing you can consider to be non-random and static.

Sadly people don't understand this, which is no surprise when these forums are full of people failing at basic math things.

The "luck based" was more aimed at the particular round instead on long term. Random "loot" is for MMORPGs. But, to set things clear, this point was never meant as a "real", an objective argument, just my feeling about it.

Seriously though, I doubt this'd work.

1. Heirlooms. So you heirloomed an expensive item but don't want to be a whimp? Sucks to be you!

Plan your builds. You can't have everything. That's the point of limitations.

2. It'd KILL versatility. No fake peasants, no ridiculous shit/builds. Boring. Besides, the absolutely most expensive stuff (super-heavy cav) isn't even that good.

It would INCREASE versatility. Why would there be no more fake peasants? If anything, it would increase their amount, because people who want to maximize their skills would be limited on cheap equipment. And you can still create shit builds, why shouldn't you be able to any more? Yes, we can argue about the actual value of the best items, the heavy horses, plate armours or the flamberge are such candidates, but why do 90% of all two handed infantry use either a Danish or a German great sword? (Felt value  :wink: ). Those few most expensive but crappy items were actually nerfed down because the upkeep system didn't do the job. Now, as good items cost you skills, there is again "room" to buff those items.

Who uses a Two Handed War Axe?


(click to show/hide)


No one, because no one needs the "special ability" of the war axe being a compromise between price and effectivity. People don't decide for "mediocre" items, except in the case of armour perhaps, because there are not enough backhits in using the top tier items.

3. Lots of work to solve a problem that doesn't really exist imho. The upkeep system isn't perfect, but it works alright. It could be a bit less random for all I care, but if you have a solid buffer it'll even out anyway.

I think it limits only the biggest "equipment excesses"... everyone else is constantly close to his "optimal" equipment. Just think about how many infantry you see with Kuyak armour, closed helmet and two handed sword (as already said, German or Danish, sometimes SOW). There is no greater variety, and there are no big choices concerning your equipment. Most classes share the same pool of equipment used, there is just no reason to use any item of the first two thirds of the weapon list once you reach lvl 30. 
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 10:41:40 pm by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Rebelyell

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Re: Replace upkeep system with equipment limiting system that works!
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2012, 12:20:25 am »
0
really no,
there is no problem some peps have gold some haven't
hevy armors never make you soooo much slower and weaker, joker you clearly have no idea about that
hevy horses suck becuse you can 1hit them

upkeap is best thing what happened to that game and you want take back stupid old system with some restrictions

its bad idea
it sounds like socialism

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Offline Joker86

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Re: Replace upkeep system with equipment limiting system that works!
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2012, 12:24:33 am »
0
really no,
there is no problem some peps have gold some haven't
hevy armors never make you soooo much slower and weaker, joker you clearly have no idea about that
hevy horses suck becuse you can 1hit them

upkeap is best thing what happened to that game and you want take back stupid old system with some restrictions

its bad idea
it sounds like socialism

Those last two sentences give me the hope this was only a troll post, because otherwise you didn't get a single point of what I wrote...  :?
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Lichen

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Re: Replace upkeep system with equipment limiting system that works!
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2012, 12:49:57 am »
0
As you all know, the purpose of the upkeep system was to limit people to a certain level of equipment, instead of having everyone running around with the best item of one type or working on it.
The 'best' isn't so best since their stats are usually adjusted to not be 'best' in everything but maybe one thing only.

Offline Joker86

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Re: Replace upkeep system with equipment limiting system that works!
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2012, 02:19:16 am »
0
The 'best' isn't so best since their stats are usually adjusted to not be 'best' in everything but maybe one thing only.

The developers tried to create some kind of "artificial" variety by moving all items closer together (concerning their effectivity) and to make the disadvantages of the most expensive items that severe, that they are not used widely on the servers. Which means the most expensive items are not necessarily the most expensive ones. If you want, replace "expensive" with "cost-effective", and there you go.

The effect of it is, that most players use the weapons which are in the upper third, resulting in some kind of artificial variety. The difference to a real variety is, that the decision is not based on balancing a character somehow (e.g. choosing between equipment and skills, like in my suggestion), but only basing on the item balance within an item category. The best compromise between speed and protection are the armours in the 40-50 armour area. The best allrounder swords are the German and the Danish greatswords. The most effective horses are between rouncey and destrier, because right now speed and mobility grant a higher survivability of the horse than armour. The changes to bow damage on hitboxes made fast shooting bows with less damage more effective than slow bows with additional damage, because of the increased headshot damage the additional damage of the big bows is not worth the slower speed.

You understand what I mean? The choice of items is not basing on different character build philosophies, it's only basing on the viability of an item. Which is the best (not most expensive) armour/sword/bow?

I think they didn't do it deliberately, it's just how Kafein noticed, they actually stopped balancing items by price. Which is perfectly reasonable, because prices change nothing. They just saw that the "extreme" items need to get nerfed, and so flamberges, plated chargers and longbows are fairly seldom on the servers. If you changed to my wealth system, you would need to buff those items, again, of course.  :wink:
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Beauchamp

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Re: Replace upkeep system with equipment limiting system that works!
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2012, 03:17:18 am »
+2
the only problem with upkeep i see is the items are to cheap

- horses are extremely cheap
- xbows are very cheap
- body armors are cheap
- high tier weapons are cheap

like how the fuck can i afford to pay upkeep for bec de corbin, vaegir elite armor, crossbow, scale gauntlets and steel bolts at the same time?
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Offline Thomek

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Re: Replace upkeep system with equipment limiting system that works!
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2012, 03:45:05 am »
0
to rewrite your post Joker. (You still write walls of text very few care to read through)

1. You want to remove upkeep
2. In stead you have an amount of money to spend based on a. Level   AND   b. richness skill/attribute

So if you want to have expensive gear, you must pay for it in skillpoints in stead, sacrificing your build in other areas.

Right?

I immediately liked the idea, but now I'm not so sure.. Too many factors influence your gold gain, and the system really ain't THAT broken to begin with. It would remove the teamwork factor to gold, the personal factor (although autobalance probably removes most of that), the will to get X5!

Also it would include a huge rebalancing of everything job most likely..
On the other hand, leeching would loose the point (except for leveling).

Not a terrible idea, but I doubt it would happen. I also like the X5 system, (even though it's an illusion!)   :evil:

I have another crazy idea now.. :) Base the upkeep price on items based on their popularity! Would kickstart the marketplace too.. And would severy cut down the number of danish greatswords, too many cav etc etc..

That would be forced variety though.. I could like it.   (Discuss it here: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,30680.0.html)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 03:53:40 am by Thomek »
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Offline POOPHAMMER

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Re: Replace upkeep system with equipment limiting system that works!
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2012, 03:49:23 am »
0
Those last two sentences give me the hope this was only a troll post, because otherwise you didn't get a single point of what I wrote...  :?

To be quite honest in order to get a single point you write, we have to read it. Sorry dude, I am not reading 500 sentences about a suggestion in a videogame. Maybe if you didnt treat every post of your like an unban essay people would actually read it.
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Replace upkeep system with equipment limiting system that works!
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2012, 10:08:28 am »
0
Too many factors influence your gold gain, and the system really ain't THAT broken to begin with. It would remove the teamwork factor to gold, the personal factor (although autobalance probably removes most of that), the will to get X5!

I think the will is only existing rudimentary among the server population, anyway, otherwise there would be much more teamplay.


I have another crazy idea now.. :) Base the upkeep price on items based on their popularity! Would kickstart the marketplace too.. And would severy cut down the number of danish greatswords, too many cav etc etc..

For a moment I thought about basing the item value on this, but I decided against it, because then others would influence your choice of equipment...  :?

To be quite honest in order to get a single point you write, we have to read it. Sorry dude, I am not reading 500 sentences about a suggestion in a videogame. Maybe if you didnt treat every post of your like an unban essay people would actually read it.

Well, I think that if you want to make a proper suggestion you need to explain it properly, and to explain which consequences it will have, because I don't want to start explaining what people understood wrong in 50% of all posts. And I think that if someone wants to participate in modifying such a sophisticated game like cRPG, he should bring the will and time to read a proper text and explanation, instead of "remove upkeep, it killed game, k thx". Nonetheless I edited my OP.

I think I failed, anyway, I have -4 already. I hope it's really related to the suggestion and not to my person or the extend of the OP...  :?
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Replace upkeep system with equipment limiting system that works!
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2012, 08:19:51 pm »
0
the only problem with upkeep i see is the items are to cheap

- horses are extremely cheap
- xbows are very cheap
- body armors are cheap
- high tier weapons are cheap

like how the fuck can i afford to pay upkeep for bec de corbin, vaegir elite armor, crossbow, scale gauntlets and steel bolts at the same time?

Troll post much ?

Horses and heavy armor already have the worst value for money of all item types. I'm literally doing as good with light armor and a long spear or a medium tier 2h as I do fully armored on a horse. If anything, upkeep should be balanced to account for the real value of equipment on the battlefield, and not the fantasies of peasant enthusiasts.


If anything, the will to get x5 should be lowered. Before the upkeep patch people used to play for fun. That changed. And I'm sure there's more to it than just nostalgia glasses. Since that patch cRPG feels like LoL, except that when you lose it's even worse because you are actually punished for something you have very little do to with.

Of course this feeling is not shared equally among the community, as people have different tastes which ends up forcing some to pay more upkeep and depend on their team more than others. And that is fucked up. Ever wondered why cav people never delay at x1/x2 ? I think you guessed it.