Author Topic: Overhaul (realistic approach)  (Read 1190 times)

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Offline Leshma

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Overhaul (realistic approach)
« on: April 12, 2012, 04:51:27 pm »
-5
There are many things that are bothering me, some I can live with some I can't (shielders dying to ranged from 3 feet distance). So, I decided to make a compilation of changes which will pretty much kill my heroic playstyle. Since there are lot of text, I've decided to split it into three parts:

I.    Class balance
II.   Formations
III. Various tweaks

Offline Leshma

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Re: Overhaul (realistic approach)
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2012, 05:13:07 pm »
-6
I. Class balance

First off all, I must say I really like how certain classes are balanced. Ranged classes to be precise. And I would like to see melee classes balanced in the same way. Pretty much wanted changes are:

a) Power something becomes the requirement for weapons instead of strength (for xbows as well even though there damage in unrelated to PS/PD/PT and should stay like that, I propose to link it with PS);

b) For every point of power something you need 14 wpp to avoid getting messages like ranged folks get when they don't have needed wpf, if you don't have enough wpp for said weapon you lose 50% of actual damage and swing 25% slower;

c) Second part is to introduce an actual class system where we would choose our class on our cRPG character page. Next thing is to create a way to identify those classes on the battlefield.

+ Certain "broken" builds will become less useful,
+ Players will be equally balanced
+ No one would cry AGI whore or STR crutcher,
+ WM will become important skill once again,
+ Xbowmen won't be able to use arbalest with just 15 str because I would like to see it as 6 PS xbow (linking it with PS sounds crazy, I know, but it could work),
+ Builds with no PS but hella lot of STR won't be able to use high tier weapons (mainly STR archer builds and pure throwers)
-  You tell me, maybe less build diversity

Desired requirements for some weapons:

(click to show/hide)


Offline Leshma

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Re: Overhaul (realistic approach)
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2012, 05:42:07 pm »
-4
II. Formations

From my (vast) cRPG experience I came to one conclusion. I don't think that organized teams of players work like they should in cRPG. Sometimes they do everything right and yet lose to inferior and less organized enemy. That never happened in history.

So, i've decided to buff teamplay. How?

It's pretty simple, actually. We already have shield wall bonus and I think it's possible to tweak that script and create a formation script out of it.

What are formations according to Leshma?

Formations are group of players (3 or more) which belong to the very same class (see class system in I. Class balance).

How does it work?

When 3 or more players of each class are near each other (near have to be set, I hope there is a way to measure proximity between players or create some sort of aura around one player and every time fellow player of the same class steps in) certain formation bonus activates and lasts as long they are near each other.

What are the bonuses for specific formations? Are there some maluses?

Yes there are both bonuses and maluses for most class formations. Examples:

2H/1H formation (3 players)
+3 PS
+3 ATH
-3  IF

Cavalry formation (3 players)
+3 PS
+3 Riding
-3  IF

Shielder formation (3 players)
+3 PS
+3 Shield
-3  ATH

Turtle formation (2 shields x 6 players)
+6 Shield
-3  ATH

HA formation (3 players)
+3 PD
+1 Horse Archery
-3  IF

HC formation (3 players, :trollface:)
+6 Riding
-6  WM

Pike formation (3 players)
+6 PS
-6  ATH

Now comes the whole point of formation idea, ranged formations:

Archery squad (3 players)
+3 PD
+3 WM
-6  ATH

Marksman squad (3 players)
+6 WM
-6 ATH

*WM bonuses (wpp) goes into weapon class that has most wpp points. If you have 160 wpp in archery you gain another 20-25 in archery.

I think I covered all classes with these formations. If I forgot something, please let me know.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 06:04:28 pm by Leshma »

Offline Leshma

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Re: Overhaul (realistic approach)
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2012, 05:58:46 pm »
-2
III. Various tweaks

I'll just list some of things that are unrelated to each other but I would like them done:

1. The thing that bothers me the most if ability of single archer to kite (Legolas fairy style), which leads to something really lame and that's when archer kills shielder from close distance using a bow...

So, please fix their ability to run and shoot and shoot beside the shields. Since formation would make them really strong in group I see no need to leave their ability to be good on their own (let's face it, archers weren't heroes, single archer couldn't do shit). I'm not sure how to do this, maybe remove ability to hold attacks when they aren't in formation :?:

2. Lone pikeman style, very annoying. They are meant to be support, not dueling class. Nerf them with the following classes in a same way:

- Pikemen (those who use weapon longer than 180), shielders (who have shield in their hand) and maulers can't jump slash/stab/crush. This would leave only 2H and 1H players able to use jump slash technique.

3. Now this might not be doable nor it's very realistic, but I would like to see it anyways. Basically, the whole idea is to make shields so when shoot at they block every single projectile (before they break that is) but when hit by melee weapons they have to block just like others do. So, it's not enough just to hold right mouse button, you have to have proper timing and to block attack direction just like 2Hs and Polearmers do. Of course, since this would be quite a nerf, it would be best if shields were buffed in some way, like less impact on move speed or something like that.

So far, that's it. I can't really remember other tweaks I would like to see. Maybe polestagger but I would fix that in a different way. Would rather fix the way animations work than actual polestagger.

Feel free to comment all 3 posts and give -1 :)

Oh yeah, forgot to mention No3:

Having 13 shield skill means both indestructible shield but also immunity from horse bumps :wink:
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 06:03:38 pm by Leshma »

Offline Patoson

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Re: Overhaul (realistic approach)
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2012, 06:05:46 pm »
0
Very interesting ideas! I approve of them!

Offline Leshma

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Re: Overhaul (realistic approach)
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2012, 06:06:20 pm »
+2
Three -1, one from Grey (Cheater clan) STR crutcher and two from people who are more banned/muted than not. Seems that I hit a nerve of some people. Keep it up :lol:

Offline Teeth

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Re: Overhaul (realistic approach)
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2012, 06:48:45 pm »
+3
Class system is a horrible idea, no reason to limit the freedom there is now. The formation bonuses are overpowered. You are trying to fix a lot of things that aren't broken and ignoring some of the more pressing issues in my opinion.

Offline ArchonAlarion

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Re: Overhaul (realistic approach)
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2012, 06:54:44 pm »
-1
This would suck. It takes all customization and "mount and blade" out of the game. Screw choosing pre-set classes, I want to create classes dynamically based on the meta-game and use hybrids.

Offline Lichen

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Re: Overhaul (realistic approach)
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2012, 07:07:48 pm »
0
b) For every point of power something you need 14 wpp to avoid getting messages like ranged folks get when they don't have needed wpf, if you don't have enough wpp for said weapon you lose 50% of actual damage and swing 25% slower;
or they could just not give free wpf points upon leveling

+ No one would cry AGI whore or STR crutcher,
players will always cry those 2 things, example str character wearing lordly plate on an armored horse gets a kill = 'str crutcher whine time'. It doesn't matter he can't swing fast and is useless in 1vs 1 or any other aware enemies, people will just focus on the 1 thing he still can do and try to get that nerfed.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 07:11:08 pm by Lichen »

Offline Fluffy_Muffin

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Re: Overhaul (realistic approach)
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2012, 07:26:52 pm »
0
Knigthly Arming Sword  4 PS
Steel pick                     5 PS
Warhammer                 5 PS
Barmace                      6 PS
Great Maul                   9 PS
Mallet                          8 PS

DGS/GGS                     6 PS
War spear                    5 PS
Pike                             8 PS
Long spear                   8 PS

Awlpike                        7 PS
Poleaxe                        8 PS
Glaive                          7 PS
GLA                             6 PS
Jarids                           7 PT
Javelins                        6 PT
Heavy throwing axes     7 PT
Throwing Lances           9 PT

Xbow                           5 PS
Arbalest                       6 PS

Retarded values, otherwise i agree

My proposed values

Knigthly Arming Sword  4 PS
Steel pick                     4 PS
Warhammer                 5 PS
Barmace                      6 PS
Great Maul                   7 PS
Mallet                          6 PS
DGS/GGS                     6 PS
War spear                    4 PS
Pike                             6 PS
Long spear                   6 PS
Awlpike                        7 PS
Poleaxe                        6 PS
Glaive                          7 PS
GLA                             6 PS
Jarids                           5 PT
Javelins                        5 PT
Heavy throwing axes     4 PT
Throwing Lances           6 PT
Xbow                           5 PS
Arbalest                       6 PS

Formation bonuses: again retarded values but otherwise i agree

+3/+6 bonus to anything is waaaaay to high

and -3/-6 waaay to low

should be more like +1/+2 or -1/-2
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 07:33:31 pm by Fluffy_Muffin »
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Offline ArchonAlarion

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Re: Overhaul (realistic approach)
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2012, 08:07:47 pm »
-1
Hey, I have an idea, let's just replace players with bots instead!
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 08:13:15 pm by ArchonAlarion »

Offline Leshma

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Re: Overhaul (realistic approach)
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2012, 08:16:04 pm »
+1
+1/2 won't make much difference imho.

This is best buff to teamplay I could come up with. I thought this community likes teamplay.

Maybe this community has no idea what it wants. Like Apple customers :D

Offline Joker86

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Re: Overhaul (realistic approach)
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2012, 09:32:56 pm »
0
I like the thoughts behind the ideas, but I fear they would limit the game too much.

I already had problems with the slot system, as for example you weren't able to be a dedicated crossbowman (or even archer) but wield a shield and a 1hd weapon as sidearms. I liked the idea of dedicated crossbowmen being slightly inferior to dedicated archers over range, but making this up with increased melee capabilities. You know what I mean?

Limiting the items the way you mentioned it would either limit certain builds to certain inferior equipment, or using certain equipment would limit the choice of builds for it.

I as pikeman was shocked by your suggested 8PS requirement value. So I need to have 24 strength to wield my weapon? Currently I am 18/21, which is rather versatile and balanced (I can also use a halberd or be a hoplite, that's why I like polearms so much), with your suggestion I would be 24/15, and I doubt any other pikeman would go 27/12 or 30/9. With such high values people would always fullfill the minimum requirement and then push AGI, resulting in everyone running around with the same builds.

Formations are a nice idea, but I fear it's a bit half-baked. For example cavalry, in this game, will never benefit of any formation bonus. You can't have the classical charges of heavy cavalry into the enemy formation like in history, simply because in history knights were "OP", and one knight could make up for ten or more peasants. But in this game, everyone is supposed to have (about) the same value, so this can't work. Logical consequence is, that you must limit cav to "sneaky backstabbers", and that's why formations will always be useless for them.

Another thing are archers. Natural formations of archers are buffing themselves by default. The more archers you have at one place, the more they buff each other, it goes up exponentially, in difference to infantry for example, where they add up rather linearly. I know from RTS games that the more archers you have the less damage you will take in general, which can't be reached by any other unit combination. Infantry needs to be close to attack an enemy, so I would say four infantrymen attacking one enemy is the maximum possible in this game. But you can have 50 archers shooting one target, no problem! I wouldn't buff that further.

And the final thingare the infantry formations. You try to reward the same classes of infantry gathering together, but I am going around the forum for weeks now, preaching how game balance will never be achieved unless infantry stops sucking so hard concerning their "tactics" skill, which is an important part of the infantry role, unlike for the other classes, which don't need that so much. My point is, that the different infantry classes need to play together to achieve the maximum performance. No other class in the game is that dependant on tactics like infantry. While most of the times infantry is only suffering from cavalry and archers, if they play together they negate all counters, but still represent a counter to everything. Never mind how many lancer gather up, they will always suck against an equal number of pikemen (or even a few less). A high number of archers will do a little bit better against a high number of shielder than a small number of archers against a small number of shielders (they are buffing each other, remember? ^^), but still they will lose most likely. A good amount of two handers will lose against the same amount of archers, and one handers will lose against lancer.

But if you have a good formation (= lose formation, I don't talk of walking in line) of different infantry classes, with shieldmen at the front, pikemen at the flanks and the back, and two handers everywhere between them, there is nothing that is particularly good against such a blop, instead most things will suck against it. Archers will only have to shoot the shields in the front and cavalry which needs to attack from the sides or the back to catch unaware targets would run into pikes. The only thing that has equal chances against such an infantry formation is another infantry formation.

So buffing infantry for the same classes playing together would motivate the wrong behaviour.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Fluffy_Muffin

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Re: Overhaul (realistic approach)
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2012, 10:27:52 pm »
0
+1/2 won't make much difference imho.

This is best buff to teamplay I could come up with. I thought this community likes teamplay.

Maybe this community has no idea what it wants. Like Apple customers :D

Its just too much of a buff, your idea will backfire into a blob vs blob fight.

Just imagine this bonus

2H/1H formation (3 players)
+3 PS
+3 ATH
-3  IF

Really?

So a 6 PS 7 ath build will become a
9 PS 10 ath!

I can see 3 top 2handers raping the entire server with this

Or maybe

Pike formation (3 players)
+6 PS
-6  ATH

+6 jesus imagine a group of 3 pikemen with 13 PS.



Your idea raises another question - What if the players do not want the negative effects of your group stats? Like specific pikemen slugging away with 0 athletics - it will make the opposite effect you desire - loners going alone not wanting the negative effects

This is why i propose +1/+2 and -1/-2. Or perhaps better yet - giving just +1 to 2 stats without negative effects - something not game breaking but nice to have in a group, i believe this will achieve the effect you desire - People will stick together for the teamplay bonus not worrying about the negative buffs or tradeoffs. They will know that it will be rewarded because lets face it - a +1 to PS and ath (or some other 2 stats) IS much when you think about it.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 10:38:37 pm by Fluffy_Muffin »
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Offline SquishMitten

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Re: Overhaul (realistic approach)
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2012, 10:45:22 pm »
0
too restrictive and the formation bonuses are baaaad
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