AGI needs some love back.

[Felagunda]

Yes Agi does need so love back.  I think that unless you are just a HA or want high riding or high shield skill there is no reason to get more than 15 agi ever. 24 -12 or 21 - 15 seem the way to go.  Although I do see tons of people even going further with 6 or 9 agi only and they take so much to kill in plate and kill so easily.  Espically if they have 9 or 10 power throw holy crap those guy are getting old.   STR is so OP now compared to agi it's stupid!

[Seawied]

For the record,  Agility DOES increase swing speed.   Ive done crpg testing, it goes up clearly.

+3 AGI =  +20 WPF
For swing speed increases

That said...

The new WPF scaling system is yet another thing that is "forced equality"

Where everyone has roughly the same WPF and armor.    The problem it causes in this situation is that  the same AGI is less valuable,  while STR is still just as valuable.

The update just gimps AGI builds.....which was never needed, they were weak to begin with.

+1 to everything except

The update just gimps AGI builds.....which was never needed, they were weak to begin with.

The balb builds out there were OP... BUT they only worked because of a lack of level cap (level 40s were very possible) and the WPF carry-over per generation.


The issue with AGI right now is the wpf scaling. If you went all strength build, you SHOULD be able to get outspammed by a high agility build. Why? Because 1 hitting is completely possible, as we have been discussing in another thread.

For the sake of this discussion, we will be using this all-strength build with a Great Long Axe (46c)

    * Strength: 30
    * Agility: 6
    * Hit points: 82

    * Unused skill points: 5

    * Converted: 2
    * Ironflesh: 10
    * Power Strike: 10
    * Shield: 0
    * Athletics: 2
    * Riding: 0
    * Horse Archery: 0
    * Power Draw: 0
    * Power Throw: 0
    * Weapon Master: 2

    * One Handed: 1
    * Two Handed: 125
    * Polearm: 1
    * Archery: 1
    * Crossbow: 1
    * Throwing: 1

here's a few of the figures

Calculations
Weapon damage * Power Strike Bonus * WPF bonus * Speed Bonus +Strength Bonus (under debate!) = Raw Damage
((46 * (1 + 0.80) * (1 + ((125 / 200) * .015)) * (1 + 0.15) + (30 - 14)) = 112.112687

Here is the calculations without the debated strength bonus
((46 * (1 + 0.80) * (1 + ((125 / 200) * .015)) * (1 + 0.15))) = 94.0232812

Now we can calculate the armor

For this test, we will calculate out damage soak with three different types of armor. Light armor (Studded Leather Coat, 30 body armor,) Medium Armor (Cuir Bouilli over Mail, 45 body armor,) and the heaviest armor, (Black Armor, 60 body armor.)

We will also be calculating out armor at average effectiveness, lowest effectiveness, and highest effectiveness. The formula we are using is as follows.
Base effective armor * (0.5 through 1.0 armor effectiveness) * Damage type soak= total damage reduction from armor


Lowest effective armor, Studded Leather Coat 30 * 0.5 * 0.8= total damage reduction from armor 12
Average effective armor, Studded Leather Coat 30 * 0.75 * 0.8= total damage reduction from armor 18
Highest effective armor, Studded Leather Coat 30 * 1.0 * 0.8= total damage reduction from armor 24

Lowest effective armor, Cuir Boulli over Mail 45 * 0.5 * 0.8= total damage reduction from armor 18
Average effective armor, Cuir Boulli over Mail 45 * 0.75 * 0.8= total damage reduction from armor 27
Highest effective armor, Cuir Boulli over Mail 45 * 1.0 * 0.8= total damage reduction from armor 36

Lowest effective armor, Black Armor over Mail 60 * 0.5 * 0.8= total damage reduction from armor 24
Average effective armor, Black Armor over Mail 60 * 0.75 * 0.8= total damage reduction from armor 36
Highest effective armor, Black Armor over Mail 60 * 1.0 * 0.8= total damage reduction from armor 48


Here is the result
Light armor, ineffective armor roll 112 - 12= 100
Light armor, ineffective armor roll, no strength damage bonus 92 - 12= 80
Light armor, average armor roll 112 - 18= 94
Light armor, average armor roll, no strength damage bonus 92 - 18= 74
Light armor, ineffective armor roll,  112 - 24= 88
Light armor, most effective armor roll, no strength damage bonus 92 - 24= 68


Medium armor, ineffective armor roll, no strength damage bonus 112 - 18= 94
Medium armor, ineffective armor roll, no strength damage bonus 92 - 18= 74
Medium armor, average armor roll  112- 27= 85
Medium armor, average armor roll, no strength damage bonus 92 - 27= 65
Medium armor, most effective armor roll 112 - 36= 76
Medium armor, most effective armor roll, no strength damage bonus 92 - 36= 56

Heaviest armor, ineffective armor roll 112 - 24= 88
Heaviest armor, ineffective armor roll, no strength damage bonus 92 - 24= 68
Heaviest armor, average armor roll 112 - 36= 76
Heaviest armor, average armor roll, no strength damage bonus 92 - 36= 56
Heaviest armor, most effective armor roll 112 - 48= 64
Heaviest armor, most effective armor roll, no strength damage bonus 92 - 48= 44


Characters start off with 35 life. To calculate their life, we can use this formula
35 + (Strength - 3) + (Ironflesh level * 2) = Final life

for a character with 15 Strength and 5 IF we would get
35 + (15 - 3) + (5 * 2)= 57

for a character with 12 Strength and 4 IF we would get
35 + (12 - 3) + (4 * 2)= 52

for a strength build character with 30 strength and 10 IF we get the following
35 + (30 - 3) + (10 * 2)= 82




To sum it up, if you use a strength build character, unless the character you hit is also a strength build character, you can easily one-shot an opponent even if they are in the heaviest of armor.

[Paul]

Your damage formular seems to be pretty wrong. Didn't even get to the armor part because the facepalm blinded me.

[Gorath]

There's more to battle than just attack speed. Having 3 AGI means you have 0 or 1 athletics, which severely gimps your footwork. Yes athletics was proved in the other thread to have a negligible effect on max run speed while wearing armor, however what it DOES do very well is increase your acceleration and that's what matters in the heat of combat. Footwork in a melee is all about darting in/out of range, encircling, dodging strikes - with 1 athletics you are a brick shithouse, you better be good at manual blocking because, for example, it will be very hard to sidestep an overhead when you move so slow.

I don't get why people say athletics is gimped unless your whole MO is to try to chase down archers, it has a definite tremendous effect on your ability to use footwork effectively.

And that's why AGI, although it still needs a small boost, isn't quite as bad as everyone thinks it is.

Actually this is not true at all.  I've done extensive testing on the duel server with people of various builds and in a 1v1 fight someone with 1 athletics can match the footwork speed of a player with 8 athletics.  Simply doing a test of circle strafing and advancing/withdrawing together they will match each others capability.  In extended movements athletics will let you reach your top speed if you can force the other player to miss and run past him in order to retreat, however in combat athletics provides no real benefit to your ability to out maneuver a low agi/ath character.  That is entirely dependant on player skill.  This changes when you reach 10 athletics and are naked as you are almost capable of backpedaling faster than a low athletics character can move forward, however this is an extreme joke build and not something to take into consideration when talking about overall balance.

Between the testing and especially data provided by Walt, a good majority of us have noticed the gimped nature of agility/athletics for quite some time now which is why most players in the know have retired, or are working on it, in order to respec into a 1-shot str build.

[Kalam]

Actually this is not true at all.  I've done extensive testing on the duel server with people of various builds and in a 1v1 fight someone with 1 athletics can match the footwork speed of a player with 8 athletics.  Simply doing a test of circle strafing and advancing/withdrawing together they will match each others capability.  In extended movements athletics will let you reach your top speed if you can force the other player to miss and run past him in order to retreat, however in combat athletics provides no real benefit to your ability to out maneuver a low agi/ath character.  That is entirely dependant on player skill.  This changes when you reach 10 athletics and are naked as you are almost capable of backpedaling faster than a low athletics character can move forward, however this is an extreme joke build and not something to take into consideration when talking about overall balance.

Between the testing and especially data provided by Walt, a good majority of us have noticed the gimped nature of agility/athletics for quite some time now which is why most players in the know have retired, or are working on it, in order to respec into a 1-shot str build.

This is pretty much it. The only build I've found it very useful in is as a shielder, for both the shield skill and the athletics, since, with a shield, you're more sensitive to a lack of maneuverability.

[1slander]

Does AGI increase swing speed or not anymore?  I ahve been making these high STR builds since patch because I was told AGI does not add any bonus past unlocking skills every x3.

[DrKronic]

Athletics does increase speed(watch canary or beeper sometime)  problem is wearing anything past leather in my research seems to negate any gain

And my guy with three athletic is faster than my all str polearm in heavy armor

[1slander]

Sucks.  I guess they gimped agi this patch for whatever reason.

[Braeden]

I honestly have no complaints on my 12 str 24 agi char in melee.  Its a bit weak against mass ranged, of course, but generally the speed lets me pick my fights.  I do my best on that character, honestly.

[Gorath]

Athletics does increase speed(watch canary or beeper sometime)  problem is wearing anything past leather in my research seems to negate any gain

And my guy with three athletic is faster than my all str polearm in heavy armor

Right, hence the naked remark.  Walt F4 even concluded this in his testing.  Armor itself negates the benefit at such a drastic level that unless you're making an extreme lololo build which runs in robes or nekkid, the armor you wear will negate your investment severely.  I only wear tribal warrior armor 90% of the time, less than lamellar and the str builds I was testing against were all in heraldic mail or higher and our speeds were pretty much identical.  Naked I was clearly faster, but running naked is a gimmick, and personally having even low-mid level armor gimping your speed to such a degree (considering that's the "average" armor on the field) makes the value null.

[Sofa_King]

lol all of my character's build are based on agi, it seems to me it works well, i stay on top of scoreboard most of the time. theres nothing wrong with agi build i think, u just need learn how to block and pick ur target in the right moment. And with a balanced great danish sword, i do 1 swing 1 kill or 2 swing 1 kill alot, well, for medium or light armor it is, heavy armor will be like 3-4 swings. And 1 thurst in the head, most ppl will die instanly, even heavy armor ppl, its not that bad i think. my build is 14-27, in case if anyone want to try it out.

[Heroin]

I agree with the OP. Revert to the old WPF scaling costs, keep the other nerfs. That should make things more balanced, give a bone to agi builds, and encourage specialization as a choice again, rather than making hybridizing a no-brainer, as it is now.

[DrKronic]

I agree with the OP. Revert to the old WPF scaling costs, keep the other nerfs. That should make things more balanced, give a bone to agi builds, and encourage specialization as a choice again, rather than making hybridizing a no-brainer, as it is now.

I agree atm if u are going over 15 agi u had better want a super fast horse or be HA or be a multi weapon hybrid

Right after patch I did a 15 str 27 agi 181 wpf two hand build and was very successful (or so I thought)  but after extensive testing of str builds it my twitch skills made an otherwise fail build work(i.e i do better and notice no usable weapon speed from the loss in agi with high str)

Although I definitely noticed taking four hits to down enemies with a "powerful" twohand

[WaltF4]

For the record,  Agility DOES increase swing speed.   Ive done crpg testing, it goes up clearly.

+3 AGI =  +20 WPF
For swing speed increases

Could you please explain how you determined this? Several posters, myself included, have conducted tests in the current version of cRPG concluding that agility does not change the time taken for an attack to complete. I would be very interested if you have an alternative method to measure swing speed that yields different results.

Armor itself negates the benefit at such a drastic level that unless you're making an extreme lololo build which runs in robes or nekkid, the armor you wear will negate your investment severely.

The heaviest armor that can currently be worn (black armor, armet, heavy gauntlets, and black/cased greaves) reduces your weapon proficiencies by ~35%. I do not know if that qualifies as drastic, but the loss of weapon proficiency due to armor does favor characters that have lower initial weapon proficiencies.

I ahve been making these high STR builds since patch because I was told AGI does not add any bonus past unlocking skills every x3.

I am in the process of measuring the time taken to run a fixed distance with various agility, athletics, and weight combinations. Increasing agility does decrease the time taken to run across the aforementioned distance. I should have the remaining tests finished for a post this week.

[Gorath]

The heaviest armor that can currently be worn (black armor, armet, heavy gauntlets, and black/cased greaves) reduces your weapon proficiencies by ~35%. I do not know if that qualifies as drastic, but the loss of weapon proficiency due to armor does favor characters that have lower initial weapon proficiencies. 

Well what I mean is this:
1)  Agi toon with 173 wpf (15/24 build) 
2)  Str toon with 148 wpf (24/15 build)
Your example of 35% wpf loss:
1 =  128 ewpf.  45 point loss
2 =  109 ewpf.  39 point loss

Level 30 = 113 wpf
WM            Gain
1 = 118      +5
2 = 125      +7
3 = 132      +5
4 = 139      +6
5 = 148      +9
6 = 156      +8
7 = 164      +8
8 = 173      +9

Essentially build 1 in that armor loses 6 WM
Build 2 loses 5

Build 2 is more efficient (str instead of Agility).  If there are discrepencies in armor this is more pronounced.  STR build can wear lighter armor than the agi build and they'll take around the same number of hits to kill because of PS/IF/HP differences while having even less of a loss than the AGI character does.  AGI character wears lighter armor and guarantees a 1-shot death to the STR build in order to achieve the same efficiency in WM loss.

In other words, to me at least, it further reinforces that STR builds are far better builds in terms of cost/benefit and efficiency in just about every area.  Even Z_E_N's research and testing, and my own in the duel servers, show the lack of tangible benefit from athletics you gain with an agi build if you wear armor greater than padded/leather/etc.

Your research into the weapon swing speeds show that there's not much improvement in swing speed with higher WPF either.  Some sure, but not alot.

I am in the process of measuring the time taken to run a fixed distance with various agility, athletics, and weight combinations. Increasing agility does decrease the time taken to run across the aforementioned distance. I should have the remaining tests finished for a post this week.

Can't wait to see it.