An opinion concerning the discussion of "ra(n)gefest" - But in another direction

[Christo]

The issue isn't about dedicated people who are range fighters. The issue is its TOO EASY to be a hybrid, and being a hybrid is too good not to do. On any map every round, i will get hit by some sort of projectile. its 100% guaranteed. we have archers/crossbowers. Each of them has 2 sets of bolts for enough arrows to not run out during the round AND some form of melee weapon often times a weapon that easily kills anyone.

then you have the people who focus on melee weapons, but they also put 1 point in PT and now they chuck axes and darts all over the place. Last night a guy hit me with 2 javs, and by the time i got near him he pulled out his triple loomed crush through weapon, i go to block(why bother right?) crush through and i'm dead. so i can either hang back and let him throw at me, or i can try and engage them up close which is when they pull out this huge unblockable weapon looneytoons style.

what needs to happen is people need to make a tough choice, do you want to be a glass cannon and do alot of damage, but are easy to kill? or do you want to be hard to kill, do alot of damage, but have minimal protection? Right now, we have a lot of people running around as tank-mages(UO reference) hard to kill, Tons of damage at range, Tons of damage up close.

This.

+100000000000000000000000.

[Dravic]

Generally, I am all after making req for melee weapons PS.

There should be simply formula for making new req:

current-req:3=new PS req

HOWEVER, it should be counted down when

The number should be rounded down or up, if it cannot be divided by three without creating the fraction. Whether it should be rounded up or down is determined by is fragile bigger or smaller than half.

for example:

Niuweidao:

Old req: 6str

New req: 6str:3=2PS

German Greatsword:

Old req: 14str

New req: 14str:3=4,(6)PS~~5PS

Mallet:

Old req: 13str

New req: 13str:3=4,(3)PS~~4PS

etc.

[jspook]

I was thinking something much easier than that even.
there shouldnt be any rounding DOWN at all.

3 and under str = 1 PS
4-6 = 2
7-9 = 3
10-12 = 4
13-15 = 5
16-18 = 6

This keeps it more in line with the bows and other things with similar requirements

[EponiCo]

If anything make weapons dependant on STR and WPF. For me PS limit would be completely pointless, I always have as much as my str affords, and I'm not sure who doesn't. It's one bloody point and that's certainly cheaper than taking 100 melee wpf instead of 50 for an archer. Geh, I swing a little slower but then I pick a weapon which is so fast I don't care, or is dead slow but 1 shots you from out of your range. Or 1 wpf throwing, easily possible.
But eh, an archer now relies on his melee weapon to get a positive k:d so don't forget to buff it along the way.

If weapons were restricted that way, only dedicated 2h could use greatsword, hybrids could use bastards and axes and maces, and no wpf can use clubs and axes. Same for 1h/pole. It also means people can't be (sucky or mediocre) warbow archer when they sit in the village and pure 2h when not.

[Kophka]

That's one of the things I agree with, make the weapons wpf dependent, rather than PS. Skill and training over ability to break bricks, yeah?

[IG_Saint]

If anything make weapons dependant on STR and WPF. For me PS limit would be completely pointless, I always have as much as my str affords, and I'm not sure who doesn't. It's one bloody point and that's certainly cheaper than taking 100 melee wpf instead of 50 for an archer. Geh, I swing a little slower but then I pick a weapon which is so fast I don't care, or is dead slow but 1 shots you from out of your range. Or 1 wpf throwing, easily possible.
But eh, an archer now relies on his melee weapon to get a positive k:d so don't forget to buff it along the way.

If weapons were restricted that way, only dedicated 2h could use greatsword, hybrids could use bastards and axes and maces, and no wpf can use clubs and axes. Same for 1h/pole. It also means people can't be (sucky or mediocre) warbow archer when they sit in the village and pure 2h when not.

Agreed, wpf is a much beter option.

[Tai Feng]

Upkeep is too low.

That's my view.


This isn't just about melee-ranged hybrids, it's also about any kind of hybrids, say, cavalry-melee hybrids. In Native, if you picked cavalry you were crippled in melee. If you picked archer you were crippled in melee.


I know I know, many will now say how horrible this upkeep is, and that they can't afford anything. Unfortunately, if archer can afford the best bow and the best melee weapon, or if horseman can afford best horse (sarranid/courser), the best cav weapon (heavy lance), top infantry weapon etc.. then there's nothing wrong with hybrids. It simply means people have too much gold.


Now the only question is do we have too many of these hybrids or not. Because there's nothing wrong with the idea itself.

[jspook]

forcing an archer to put points into PS takes points away that they would otherwise convert into attributes, and still be able to take a mele weapon ANYWAY

with your way, I would just convert those six points into agi and put the wpf into 2H.  This allows for much more hybridized builds.

MY way would force them to actually choose which is more important.  because they would have LESS wpf to spend overall, and would still have to put points in PS to pick a better mele weapon.  Pure archers would have to use a lower tiered mele weapon to sacrifice for that archery wpf, and hybrids sacrifice archery wpf to put points into PS instead of the att conversion.

Its called "balance"

Just modifying the wpf requirements would be simple to bypass by just stacking agi with a 18/21 or 15/24 build and converting 8 pts.  this would allow you to use pretty much every weapon in the game with almost maximum efficiency.  This is the problem that was being addressed in the OP.

[Vibe]

What's wrong is that even with 1wpf, crossbows and throwing weapon reticule is too damn small. The reticule should be huge like a woman's vagina when giving birth until the wpf is about 100-120.

[Darkkarma]

What's wrong is that even with 1wpf, crossbows and throwing weapon reticule is too damn small. The reticule should be huge like a woman's vagina when giving birth until the wpf is about 100-120.

Your effectiveness with 1wpf at crossbow is about as effective as any other melee weapon with 1 wpf and powerstrike.  Also, if you miss with a crossbow of ANY kind at 1 wpf, goodluck getting a second shot in before enemies or other ACTUAL crossbowmen / archers pick you to pieces. (Assuming melee guys don't get to you first,as you're sure not going to be at any serious range from a melee fight with 1 wpf at crossbow if you want to even hope for a kill.) If it weren't for the fact that crossbows have an ungodly reload time for non dedicated users, you'd have a case.

[Vibe]

Your effectiveness with 1wpf at crossbow is about as effective as any other melee weapon with 1 wpf and powerstrike.  Also, if you miss with a crossbow of ANY kind at 1 wpf, goodluck getting a second shot in before enemies or other ACTUAL crossbowmen / archers pick you to pieces. (Assuming melee guys don't get to you first,as you're sure not going to be at any serious range from a melee fight with 1 wpf at crossbow if you want to even hope for a kill.) If it weren't for the fact that crossbows have an ungodly reload time for non dedicated users, you'd have a case.

But once you have a team of shielders and other crossbowmen that support you the reload time doesn't matter. That's why alot of melee picks up a crossbow too.

[Camaris]

I have no more problems to play with those ranged on siege.
Its ok there. But on battle its fucked up. Waiting 3 minutes because someone threw a weapon somewhere and had luck is so disturbing.

[Vibe]

I have no more problems to play with those ranged on siege.
Its ok there. But on battle its fucked up. Waiting 3 minutes because someone threw a weapon somewhere and had luck is so disturbing.

Yep, have to agree here. I really don't mind on sieges, but if I recieve a lucky headshot over half of the map away at the start of a battle round it really sucks.

[MouthnHoof]

The fact that an archer can pull out a big-f-sword and proceed to whoops ass is not a big problem (from my view as an infantry). I WANT them to be able to fight instead of facing only runners. Bows in general are not problematic anymore - it is all about thrown and xbows.

The problem is the melee-focused guys who have no reason NOT to carry a thrown or an xbow. These should be some cost  to make this "what the heck, I'll carry an xbow" attitude unattractive. One is cost on the lightest xbows. I imagine that a dedicated xbowman will go for the heavier xbows and it seems that the "two free slots to fill" types carry the light ones. Raising the cost of the low tier ones may make this a little less appealing.

The other option is to add penalties to xbows that will really hurt an infantry - at least psychologically. It is possible (see Brytenwalda mod) to have skill penalties attached to equipment. An xbow is a cumbersome thing to carry on your back while swordplaying. I bet that if it carried even -1 penalty to PS, many will skip it. I would put this at -2 PS. Make sure to advertise this penalty well for the full psychological effect. The point being: a dedicated xbowman will be much less effected by this: he is dedicated to shooting the bow from distance, not carrying it for the highland charge (one shot, then charge). Xbow user than wishes to go into full melee can "g" drop the xbow and the penalty goes away (in Brytenwalda). I will not mind "two slot fillers" starting the frame with the xbow, then dropping it and going full melee - they will most likely not go back to pick it up and the shoot-melee-shoot-melee will go away.

In theory a similar thing can be done with throwing weapons for the "lets have something to throw from 3 meters" crowd, but I do not think it fits that case (unlike the xbow case, it will hurt the dedicated throwers). Dedicated throwers go insanely high PT anyway, therefore I think that the PT entry point to any decent throwing weapons should be 4 PT and the really good ones above 6. If you are a melee guy that just want to throw something for the lols, there are plenty of stones around with 0 PT requirement.

[Darkkarma]

But once you have a team of shielders and other crossbowmen that support you the reload time doesn't matter. That's why alot of melee picks up a crossbow too.

Fighting a group of rangers of any kind, Hybrid or dedicated is going to be a pain/dangerous if you're not a shielder. Any playstyle is much more effective when you have a team of shielders backing you up. Alot of meleers pick up crossbows because it mainly relies on STR and is alot easier to hybrid with as WPF is all it takes. Lets also take into account how many shots it will take to bring down your average armor wearing individual assuming you have next to no WPF and can't reload quickly. The bolts also travel pretty darn slow unless you have a decent travel speed one like the heavy or sniper (both of which will take ages to reload if you don't have the WPF to use.)

Determining whether or not a weapon is overpowered shouldn't be determined solely by how well it does in a well-rounded group.

I also guarantee you that if a well formed group plays against a crossbower's team, even with 150 wpf, they won't get more than a couple shots off before they are forced to go into melee range assuming they close the distance. Once you're pursuing a crossbower, they can run all they want, in most cases, you're never going to get another shot in the chamber while being chased unless you run into a group of allies, which can be said for any type of ranged fighting style.