Make shield difficulty Strength based

[B3RS3RK]

If you make ironflesh agi based...

[ArchonAlarion]

I don't think this would hurt balance significantly, if anything it would improve "balance" because the boundary between shielders and the rest of melee would be erased, thus allowing more player choice to loadout effectively from battle to battle, which ultimately is the only kind of "balancing" this game needs.

[Jarlek]

1. wtf it was 11pm and i was tired as fuck and you were the 3rd person to point out that I was wrong and you did it in a fucking retarded way
2. My point is that it is not going to be really helpfull for 2h infantry.

1. Then stop raging at me and apologize. I didn't single you out, just pointed out to all the people who had been mistaken in a hope that more people would get it. Stop raging.
2. So you are saying that just because it wont be really helpful, it shouldn't be introduced? First of all, it WOULD be really helpful. Maybe not for you, maybe not all the time, but there WILL be times where it would help out, and that's a good thing. So what exactly is your problem? It's not helpful enough? People already posted different scenarious where it could be helpful, yet you keep saying it wont. Please. Tell me how it would NOT help you to be able to grab a shield on the ground when there's only you and an archer left? Or in a siege when you have to go up a ladder and there's a thrower there throwing shit at you?

[BlackMilk]

1. Then stop raging at me and apologize. I didn't single you out, just pointed out to all the people who had been mistaken in a hope that more people would get it. Stop raging.
2. So you are saying that just because it wont be really helpful, it shouldn't be introduced? First of all, it WOULD be really helpful. Maybe not for you, maybe not all the time, but there WILL be times where it would help out, and that's a good thing. So what exactly is your problem? It's not helpful enough? People already posted different scenarious where it could be helpful, yet you keep saying it wont. Please. Tell me how it would NOT help you to be able to grab a shield on the ground when there's only you and an archer left? Or in a siege when you have to go up a ladder and there's a thrower there throwing shit at you?

There's no need for a shield when theres only me and an archer left because I can simply dodge his arrows (like in the open field when I'm not fighting an opponent) and it's impossible to pick up items from a ladder afaik

[Tomas_of_Miles]

To be honest I preferred Native's method of shield usage. Would I be non-retarded in thinking this is what Tomas is suggesting? You can use a shield if you have the sufficient strength but you would be better at using it with shield skill? Ranged fellas would still be able to shoot the feet or sides of unskilled shielders.

[ArchonAlarion]

To be honest I preferred Native's method of shield usage. Would I be non-retarded in thinking this is what Tomas is suggesting? You can use a shield if you have the sufficient strength but you would be better at using it with shield skill? Ranged fellas would still be able to shoot the feet or sides of unskilled shielders.

Right. Along with this, it is implied that the progression of shield difficulties would be altered somewhat as well. So the lighter shields would be low difficulty (w/e price) and the heavy shields would be higher difficulty (w/e price).

[Jarlek]

There's no need for a shield when theres only me and an archer left because I can simply dodge his arrows (like in the open field when I'm not fighting an opponent) and it's impossible to pick up items from a ladder afaik

Ït's possible to pickup items from a ladder, I also never said the shield was ON the ladder. Just that you had to go up it.

And while you can dodge the arrows, the archer can also just run. Sure, as the last player he's delaying, but he could also be camping some hard-to-reach spot, you know how archers love to do that, and then it's not as easy to dodge as if he you were in the open. Would be nice to have a ladder then, no? Seriously. Why are you so against this?

To be honest I preferred Native's method of shield usage. Would I be non-retarded in thinking this is what Tomas is suggesting? You can use a shield if you have the sufficient strength but you would be better at using it with shield skill? Ranged fellas would still be able to shoot the feet or sides of unskilled shielders.

Pretty much as in native yeah, except there's a strength requirement for picking up the shields. Same as it is with weapons, except they also suggest you get a penalty if you also don't have enough shieldskill too. Personally, I would like some STR requirement, but no penalty. Shields already need shieldskill to be fully useful, so it wouldn't be OP to use a shield without shieldskill. It WORKS but it's far from optimized. Same as using a weapon with 1 wpf in it. It is doable, but you really want to have 100wpf in it to work properly.

[San]

Bleh, sorry for the fail read. I get mixed up with the 5 other similar suggestions for shield<->strength relationship. Funny thing is that I think I read it properly the first few times I saw the topic and the time I happened to post I screwed up. Either way, this isn't too good an idea unless there are extra nerfs to having too low shield skill. Otherwise, I'd rather have 0 shield and a huscarl with 5 extra IF or whatever than 5 shield.


I feel the durability increase of skill is negated by being able to pick up better shields at lower shield skill anyways.

I think this will nerf shield skill itself too heavily unless it gets better bonuses.

Shield skill 2 and 1 shields are pretty much useless except for taking 5-6 arrows roughly. It starts getting decent when you can get the brown lion heater at 3 shield skill, and 4+ is completely viable. But what's the point if you can just bypass all the crappy shields at 0 shield skill?

lvl 30 build

(click to show/hide)

    Strength: 24
    Agility: 15
    Hit points: 75

    Skills to attributes: 8

    Ironflesh: 8
    Power Strike: 8
    Shield: 0
    Athletics: 5
    Riding: 0
    Horse Archery: 0
    Power Draw: 0
    Power Throw: 0
    Weapon Master: 2

    One Handed: 123
    Two Handed: 1
    Polearm: 1
    Archery: 1
    Crossbow: 1
    Throwing: 1

lvl 33 build even while sacrificing skill points

(click to show/hide)

Level 33 (35 569 612 xp)

    Strength: 24
    Agility: 21
    Hit points: 69

    Skills to attributes: 14

    Ironflesh: 5
    Power Strike: 8
    Shield: 0
    Athletics: 7
    Riding: 0
    Horse Archery: 0
    Power Draw: 0
    Power Throw: 0
    Weapon Master: 0

    One Handed: 117
    Two Handed: 1
    Polearm: 1
    Archery: 1
    Crossbow: 1
    Throwing: 1

Hits like a truck, still quick on his feet, has safety against range. Sure, with penalties he might get hit around the shield a little more, but the ironflesh/STR makes up for it, and it's better than what it would have been at 0 shield.
Change 1h wpf to 2h/polearm and it'll be the same, maybe even better?

The above build would be much crappier without that 5 IF

[Jarlek]

(click to show/hide)

Bleh, sorry for the fail read. I get mixed up with the 5 other similar suggestions for shield<->strength relationship. Funny thing is that I think I read it properly the first few times I saw the topic and the time I happened to post I screwed up. Either way, this isn't too good an idea unless there are extra nerfs to having too low shield skill. Otherwise, I'd rather have 0 shield and a huscarl with 5 extra IF or whatever than 5 shield.


I feel the durability increase of skill is negated by being able to pick up better shields at lower shield skill anyways.

I think this will nerf shield skill itself too heavily unless it gets better bonuses.

Shield skill 2 and 1 shields are pretty much useless except for taking 5-6 arrows roughly. It starts getting decent when you can get the brown lion heater at 3 shield skill, and 4+ is completely viable. But what's the point if you can just bypass all the crappy shields at 0 shield skill?

lvl 30 build

(click to show/hide)

    Strength: 24
    Agility: 15
    Hit points: 75

    Skills to attributes: 8

    Ironflesh: 8
    Power Strike: 8
    Shield: 0
    Athletics: 5
    Riding: 0
    Horse Archery: 0
    Power Draw: 0
    Power Throw: 0
    Weapon Master: 2

    One Handed: 123
    Two Handed: 1
    Polearm: 1
    Archery: 1
    Crossbow: 1
    Throwing: 1

lvl 33 build even while sacrificing skill points

(click to show/hide)

Level 33 (35 569 612 xp)

    Strength: 24
    Agility: 21
    Hit points: 69

    Skills to attributes: 14

    Ironflesh: 5
    Power Strike: 8
    Shield: 0
    Athletics: 7
    Riding: 0
    Horse Archery: 0
    Power Draw: 0
    Power Throw: 0
    Weapon Master: 0

    One Handed: 117
    Two Handed: 1
    Polearm: 1
    Archery: 1
    Crossbow: 1
    Throwing: 1

Hits like a truck, still quick on his feet, has safety against range. Sure, with penalties he might get hit around the shield a little more, but the ironflesh/STR makes up for it, and it's better than what it would have been at 0 shield.
Change 1h wpf to 2h/polearm and it'll be the same, maybe even better?

The above build would be much crappier without that 5 IF

Now THIS is a proper argument!

Yeah, this really shows that there should be some disadvantages, I'm just not sure what. Shields already weight you down a lot, maybe make it so that if you don't have shieldskill you get even more movement speed loss from the having the shield? You can still as a non-shielder use it to get up a ladder, be in a shieldwall, advance on ranged; but you would be slowed down so much that fighting with the shield wouldn't work at all.

[Mial]

Ever tried out a shield with low shield skill? You attack, the other player blocks and attacks back, but your shield skill is too low to raise it fast enough, especially when your foe wields a fast weapon. So you get hit, because the low shield skill represents, that you cannot properly use a shield in combat.
That happened to me sometimes even with shield skill 4 and (normal) round shield.

A guy with shield skill 0 would get outspammed with a mid to heavy shield. A light shield would brake after five arrows or three hits (i guess).

[ArchonAlarion]

Ever tried out a shield with low shield skill? You attack, the other player blocks and attacks back, but your shield skill is too low to raise it fast enough, especially when your foe wields a fast weapon. So you get hit, because the low shield skill represents, that you cannot properly use a shield in combat.
That happened to me sometimes even with shield skill 4 and (normal) round shield.

A guy with shield skill 0 would get outspammed with a mid to heavy shield. A light shield would brake after five arrows or three hits (i guess).

Yeah, and I've never experienced 0 skill huscarls and steel shields before, but I bet it's too slow to be advantageous.

One question though, does shield skill currently provide a set benefit per skill level, or is the shield difficulty subtracted from the skill level to determine the benefit received?

[Jarlek]

Yeah, and I've never experienced 0 skill huscarls and steel shields before, but I bet it's too slow to be advantageous.

One question though, does shield skill currently provide a set benefit per skill level, or is the shield difficulty subtracted from the skill level to determine the benefit received?

Set benefit per skill level. Same with all skills. The only one that has any restriction is Power Draw, which stops giving you bonuses after 4 points AFTER the requirement.

[ArchonAlarion]

Cool thanks, then there is reason to believe that using a heavy shield in melee at zero shield skill would not be advantageous. It would have use against ranged, however.

[Jarlek]

Cool thanks, then there is reason to believe that using a heavy shield in melee at zero shield skill would not be advantageous. It would have use against ranged, however.

Exactly. That's what I want. More shields to negate the ranged. Or at the very least force them to think and reposition themselves so they fire from multiple sides. It also looks more cooler when we got more heraldic colours around from the shields.