archery..

[Son Of Odin]

Dunno if it was him tho.. He only wrote cyrillic and I couldn't understand shit...

[XyNox]

It was EU4 then I guess ...

[Son Of Odin]

It was EU4 then I guess ...

Offtopic continues:

I'm not sure but it feels like shit to die into a situation like that after you successfully kill Kinngrimm and some other guys in melee who tried to gank you... I had 1hp left because the fight was pretty intense and I probably would have died if someone punched me once. Only me and HA left at that point so I camped behind tree, waiting for flags. Flags came right where I was, but then the evil horsearcher came to harrass me with the arrows he had collected for quite some time already . I struggled couple minutes and dodged his every arrow and when the final minute was closing in he charged and managed to have a lucky shot after ~20 unsuccessful ones... Can you imagine how much it sucks to die like that after you just slaughtered 3 skilled men ganking on you and felt like the king of all crpg and then some random no skill delayer HA beats you and there is nothing you can do about it!?

Sorry if someone recognises himself from this story... I just think HA must have been poorly skilled, having lags or low level because he couldnt hit anything... It was a LUCK SHOT! There you have it... I just had to write this somewhere...

[XyNox]

Offtopic continues:

I'm not sure but it feels like shit to die into a situation like that after you successfully kill Kinngrimm and some other guys in melee who tried to gank you... I had 1hp left because the fight was pretty intense and I probably would have died if someone punched me once. Only me and HA left at that point so I camped behind tree, waiting for flags. Flags came right where I was, but then the evil horsearcher came to harrass me with the arrows he had collected for quite some time already . I struggled couple minutes and dodged his every arrow and when the final minute was closing in he charged and managed to have a lucky shot after ~20 unsuccessful ones... Can you imagine how much it sucks to die like that after you just slaughtered 3 skilled men ganking on you and felt like the king of all crpg and then some random no skill delayer HA beats you and there is nothing you can do about it!?

Sorry if someone recognises himself from this story... I just think HA must have been poorly skilled, having lags or low level because he couldnt hit anything... It was a LUCK SHOT! There you have it... I just had to write this somewhere...

Yes Odin, I know how you feel. Getting shot by an unreachable noskiller from a horseback is a pain obviously and most dishonorable. Not so much for me of course as I can gun down the horse. But the root of all this anger are the continueing archery nerfs.

Melee is 100 % skill based. Given the correct skill, build and equip you could win 100% of all melee fights. Imagine you could see everything 10 times slower to correct for human reaction time and you would own everyone as there are no random factors appart from glitches that might occur. Nerf after nerf however brought a lot of random factors to archery, limiting your efficiency and you cant do ANYTHING about it. You never know if your shot will miss the target one foot to the right or hit dead center unless you aint got a lvl 33 build with a +3 rusbow and crutch massive archery wpf. You never know if in the 1 - 2 seconds the slow moving arrow takes to reach its destination your target-movement follows as predicted. Even if you could see everything 10 times slower and have a computer in your head instead of a brain, you still have to rely on pure luck sometimes, or just hope that your enemy has no clue how to effectivly dodge projectiles (which many dont have thankfully). All that combined with the fact that projectiles lose tons of damage over travel time, thus making them most effective as a form of melee weapon are a few of the reasons that lead to the thing we know as shotgunning.

With these pityfull archery mechanics, plus the fact that you cant kill anyone in a melee fight it was only a matter of time people began to construct their builds around running away from the enemy and kiting instead of fighting them. Dont assume we actually LIKE running away from the enemy, the game simply does not offer any other option to us. There is simply no point in hitting you with my 0 PS 0 slot weapon just to watch it bounce off your mid-armor. Yet we cant affort putting points into PS as this would mean even less accuracy or even less damage and missile speed. Pure archers are simply useless at melee and are not devastating at range either unless fully loomed and extremly high skilled. But they are there and that means with the current mechanics, the only way to counter them is to defent your own ranged which almost NEVER happens.

I even went kind of hybrid this gen with a HBS to my hip so I can shoot and slice up things alike to make up for the general lack of melee support, but due to the build limitations im not very accurate nor hard hitting at range and in melee almost everyone can outspam me. And then again I cant carry enough ammo with me to give range support everytime its needed or shoot down horses. Im not expecting to get a build that is superior at close and long range fighting simultaniously but archers sure need anything that gives them the abillity and a fair chance to FIGHT instead of DELAY when enemies get close like it is the case right now or give them more accuracy and missile speed at range but make em dead meat when someone gets close so its more about strategic positioning. You will see once there is an actual gain from power draw again, people will stop whoring ath to run away, as their bow is not a reliable tool for killing at range anyway right now.

So in conclusion Odin, if you and your kind will stop to complain and call for nerfs there might be archers in the future that die happily in a fight instead of getting stabbed in the back with a tear in their eyes And now that our differences are solved lets be best friends and watch rainbows together while the sun is setting.

[Gurnisson]

You never know if your shot will miss the target one foot to the right or hit dead center unless you aint got a lvl 33 build with a +3 rusbow and crutch massive archery wpf. You never know if in the 1 - 2 seconds the slow moving arrow takes to reach its destination your target-movement follows as predicted. Even if you could see everything 10 times slower and have a computer in your head instead of a brain, you still have to rely on pure luck sometimes, or just hope that your enemy has no clue how to effectivly dodge projectiles (which many dont have thankfully).

You're an archer stacking PD, right? I had no problem hitting people with an 18/21 build and it still inflicts severe damage. Complaining about not having great accuracy while going for power? Shouldn't be able to have your cake and eat it too (but you already get that if you loom a rus/horn with an 18/21 build. Great damage and great kiting abilities in one build) PD over 6 is quite bad, I would say.

With these pityfull archery mechanics, plus the fact that you cant kill anyone in a melee fight it was only a matter of time people began to construct their builds around running away from the enemy and kiting instead of fighting them. Dont assume we actually LIKE running away from the enemy, the game simply does not offer any other option to us. There is simply no point in hitting you with my 0 PS 0 slot weapon just to watch it bounce off your mid-armor. Yet we cant affort putting points into PS as this would mean even less accuracy or even less damage and missile speed. Pure archers are simply useless at melee and are not devastating at range either unless fully loomed and extremly high skilled. But they are there and that means with the current mechanics, the only way to counter them is to defent your own ranged which almost NEVER happens.

You make a stupid build to get some milliseconds faster draw and almost not noticeable better accuracy. 18/21 with leather, 5 ps, 5 ath, 7 wm at level 30 rocked. Held my ground in melee if I wanted to, ran and gunned if I wanted to, killed easily at range if I wanted to. Don't blame the game for your own choices.

I even went kind of hybrid this gen with a HBS to my hip so I can shoot and slice up things alike to make up for the general lack of melee support, but due to the build limitations im not very accurate nor hard hitting at range and in melee almost everyone can outspam me. And then again I cant carry enough ammo with me to give range support everytime its needed or shoot down horses. Im not expecting to get a build that is superior at close and long range fighting simultaniously but archers sure need anything that gives them the abillity and a fair chance to FIGHT instead of DELAY when enemies get close like it is the case right now or give them more accuracy and missile speed at range but make em dead meat when someone gets close so its more about strategic positioning. You will see once there is an actual gain from power draw again, people will stop whoring ath to run away, as their bow is not a reliable tool for killing at range anyway right now.

Grab a langes messer/fighting axe instead of a HBS for more arrows. You won't be outspammed by people with a HBS if you have semi-decent footwork, even with 1 wpf. I've used 1 wpf weapons a lot on my archer and it's never the lack of WPF that makes me get hit by a double-attack. As I mentioned above, 18/21 with 5 ps, 5 ath and 7 wm at level 30 gives you good melee capabilities but also makes you deadly at range.


Archers are strong, by all means, but they're not really deserving of a great nerf. Maybe a bit of a weight increase on bows to have the 18/21 and 18/24 builds not covering everything. Also, please don't blame the game for your choice. I see so many archers whining about not being able to be effective in melee which is a joke, it's perfectly viable. Cupid is a decent example of an archer that does it effectively.

[Rumblood]

You're an archer stacking PD, right? I had no problem hitting people with an 18/21 build and it still inflicts severe damage. Complaining about not having great accuracy while going for power? Shouldn't be able to have your cake and eat it too (but you already get that if you loom a rus/horn with an 18/21 build. Great damage and great kiting abilities in one build) PD over 6 is quite bad, I would say.

Remove the WPF penalty from having higher PD. It doesn't make sense anyhow. You have to have +3 Strength for each point in PD already. How many Strength builds would there be if every point in PS slowed down your weapon speed? Or slowed down how fast you can turn?
Why can melee have their cake and eat it too? Not to mention that Athletics was nerfed so much as to eliminate the advantage an Agility build used to have in a melee fight.

Fair and balanced. Not the Fox version 

[XyNox]

You're an archer stacking PD, right? I had no problem hitting people with an 18/21 build and it still inflicts severe damage. Complaining about not having great accuracy while going for power? Shouldn't be able to have your cake and eat it too (but you already get that if you loom a rus/horn with an 18/21 build. Great damage and great kiting abilities in one build) PD over 6 is quite bad, I would say.

You missed the point:
The paragraph just points out that archery in general with relatively low accuracy and slow missile speeds in this mod is more luck dependent than melee due to many random factors. Technically your statement is correct to some degree but the arrangement of skillpoint and their given effects is not to be discussed in this context, as this part is but a premise to why shotgunning is more effective than using archery as an actual ranged fighting class. What you write again is the very root of the problem; there is no way to achieve high PD without making yourself ineffective in the same move because of the huge drop in accuracy. If I can choose between a build that can kill the target in 1 hit but only hits on every 5. shot or a build that can hit the enemy 5 times in a row but needs 5 arrows to kill and is also faster, why would anyone go the first one when you can just kite them ( simplyfied, not a real world example, also rhetorical question ) ?

You make a stupid build to get some milliseconds faster draw and almost not noticeable better accuracy. 18/21 with leather, 5 ps, 5 ath, 7 wm at level 30 rocked. Held my ground in melee if I wanted to, ran and gunned if I wanted to, killed easily at range if I wanted to. Don't blame the game for your own choices.

What happened here ? Who made a build with milliseconds of faster draw ? And who were all the people you destructinated in every possible situation, in melee and ranged combat alike ? I dont understand any of this but I think you are missing the point:
Again your skilltree is not the matter here. Ill repeat: "Pure archers are simply useless at melee and are not devastating at range either unless fully loomed and extremly high skilled". Maybe you just didnt read carefully. I am speaking of putting every aviable point into archery related skills to gain the maximum ranged combat effiency to your disposal by skillpoints. This means low PS if any. If you are telling me you can defeat an 45+ armor person with no or low PS and a 0 slot weapon ( granted you want some arrows to shoot and a nice bow ) and 1 wpf you should probably stop talking about singleplayer. And now we are back the beginning -> pure archer = dead meat in melee BUT not devastating at range also due to all the random factor and all the other things you can read in my original post, again giving more advantages to the shotgunner.

Grab a langes messer/fighting axe instead of a HBS for more arrows. You won't be outspammed by people with a HBS if you have semi-decent footwork, even with 1 wpf. I've used 1 wpf weapons a lot on my archer and it's never the lack of WPF that makes me get hit by a double-attack. As I mentioned above, 18/21 with 5 ps, 5 ath and 7 wm at level 30 gives you good melee capabilities but also makes you deadly at range.

Again the pure archer thing. 6 PD is not deadly though unless you can look into the future for headshotting people at longer ranges or you find a lot of fools who like standing motionless or walking in straight lines much.

Archers are strong, by all means, but they're not really deserving of a great nerf. Maybe a bit of a weight increase on bows to have the 18/21 and 18/24 builds not covering everything. Also, please don't blame the game for your choice. I see so many archers whining about not being able to be effective in melee which is a joke, it's perfectly viable. Cupid is a decent example of an archer that does it effectively.

Strong is relative in this case. A smart person can very much influence whether he loses to an archer or not. Melee combat although lets the person win who is more skilled, given appropriate builds, which pure archers cant achieve. Unless arrows are hitscan with laser accuracy there will always be a little randomness of course. Im not talking about giving archers native-like accuracy, reload times and missile speed but in crpg its way to easy for a person to avoid and hunt down archers once known how its done correctly. I for my part cant remember having problems with other archers shooting me all day.

[Gurnisson]

You missed the point:
The paragraph just points out that archery in general with relatively low accuracy and slow missile speeds in this mod is more luck dependent than melee due to many random factors. Technically your statement is correct to some degree but the arrangement of skillpoint and their given effects is not to be discussed in this context, as this part is but a premise to why shotgunning is more effective than using archery as an actual ranged fighting class. What you write again is the very root of the problem; there is no way to achieve high PD without making yourself ineffective in the same move because of the huge drop in accuracy. If I can choose between a build that can kill the target in 1 hit but only hits on every 5. shot or a build that can hit the enemy 5 times in a row but needs 5 arrows to kill and is also faster, why would anyone go the first one when you can just kite them ( simplyfied, not a real world example, also rhetorical question ) ?

Yes, I agree that it's a bit too luck-dependant. Missile speed is okay, but I wouldn't mind a decent increase in accuracy.

What happened here ? Who made a build with milliseconds of faster draw ? And who were all the people you destructinated in every possible situation, in melee and ranged combat alike ? I dont understand any of this but I think you are missing the point:

You complainmed about pure archer's effectiveness and I just replied to it. People are not forced to going pure archers but a lot of them still has the nerve to complain about their melee effectiveness when they do. Hybriding is very much possible and I don't understand why not more people do it.

Again your skilltree is not the matter here. Ill repeat: "Pure archers are simply useless at melee and are not devastating at range either unless fully loomed and extremly high skilled". Maybe you just didnt read carefully. I am speaking of putting every aviable point into archery related skills to gain the maximum ranged combat effiency to your disposal by skillpoints. This means low PS if any. If you are telling me you can defeat an 45+ armor person with no or low PS and a 0 slot weapon ( granted you want some arrows to shoot and a nice bow ) and 1 wpf you should probably stop talking about singleplayer. And now we are back the beginning -> pure archer = dead meat in melee BUT not devastating at range also due to all the random factor and all the other things you can read in my original post, again giving more advantages to the shotgunner.

I've killed a lot of guys with 0 ps alts but it's not recommended to go for it though since one bounce is mostly enough to get one killed. You have to hold your attacks for max damage all the time and do headhits too. However, what you're saying about fully loomed archers not being devestating at range and/or in melee is way off. Just look at cupid and bagge for example. Deadly accurate at range and pulls out a good melee weapon afterwards and can easily win over their already damaged opponent. Depends on your build how effective you are at range, 18/21 and 18/24 builds are good at range sniping while high pd builds are good at firing into the enemy blob.

Again the pure archer thing. 6 PD is not deadly though unless you can look into the future for headshotting people at longer ranges or you find a lot of fools who like standing motionless or walking in straight lines much.

This is a joke, right? 6 PD is by far enough to make a very viable archer. If you got heirlooms too I would see no reason at all to go for more PD since you're gimping accuracy and kiting abilities for a too low gain in damage. I would rather just stack WM for accuracy. bagge with his loomed gear and 18/24 build was a two-shot machine. That's 6 PD for you.

Strong is relative in this case. A smart person can very much influence whether he loses to an archer or not. Melee combat although lets the person win who is more skilled, given appropriate builds, which pure archers cant achieve. Unless arrows are hitscan with laser accuracy there will always be a little randomness of course. Im not talking about giving archers native-like accuracy, reload times and missile speed but in crpg its way to easy for a person to avoid and hunt down archers once known how its done correctly. I for my part cant remember having problems with other archers shooting me all day.

True, the accuracy is a bit to luck-dependant, I've already stated that I agree with that. Skill-based archery > Luck-based archery. You can say that it's easy to avoid an archer focusing you, but it depends at what range. It's true that shotgunning is strong, like you already mentioned, but it can be hard to dodge arrows at range too depending on bow/PD etc.

[rufio]

18/21 archer is already immensely op without looms atall, play in teamplay and you will have the real potential of your class revealed to you, lets sayif we had a 10 man squad with 1 to 3 archers with this build, andinfantry protects, archers will shoot all down eazely.  ( to eazely also because archers seem to do way more damage then melee 6pd > 6ps) you might find this overexacherating, but i tell you in team ballance archery is O the fuckin P and when i spend my rounds protecting archer nests i hardly ever lose 

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[Overdriven]

Sorry if someone recognises himself from this story... I just think HA must have been poorly skilled, having lags or low level because he couldnt hit anything... It was a LUCK SHOT! There you have it... I just had to write this somewhere...

Tbh you can dodge an HA's arrows all day on foot if you are aware of them. People just don't do it very well most of the time. It makes shooting someone very very difficult if they are dodging around.  It probs was a luck shot but still.

I've been playing lancer recently so I'm getting used to raging at HA. Not that's it's going to adjust my play style as HA at all when I switch back. But it's nice to get a different perspective.

Yes Odin, I know how you feel. Getting shot by an unreachable noskiller from a horseback is a pain obviously and most dishonorable. Not so much for me of course as I can gun down the horse. But the root of all this anger are the continueing archery nerfs.

Lol. Having played both HA and foot archer, HA is a lot more challenging and skillful than foot archer.

Anyway, I have no problems with archery at the moment. Wearing heavy Yawshan it took 4 arrows from a warbow to kill me. Which is more than fair in my opinion.

[XyNox]

You complainmed about pure archer's effectiveness and I just replied to it. People are not forced to going pure archers but a lot of them still has the nerve to complain about their melee effectiveness when they do. Hybriding is very much possible and I don't understand why not more people do it.

And this the whole problem about it. You can freely choose between maximum power and maximum speed melee builds with no significant drawbacks. There is no skill that effectly gives you a disadvantage when you skill it. On archery however its different. Who thought it would be a good idea to let PD do something against your efficiency ? Of course you shouldnt be able to be fast, accurate and powerful all at once but even with a longbow, the most expensive peace of archery equipment you cant go over 6 PD without losing tons of accuracy at lvl 30. What the hell is the skill for then ?? If I would be new to the game Id think this is a bug and not balance. Is it too much to ask to be able to hit what you are aiming at considering arrows already fly quite slow, reload time are high and you cant hold your bow drawn for more than a second without it shooting yourself in the face ?

So actually YES, they ARE forced to go around 6 PD in order to play a viable build that is capable of dishing out damage consistently.

I've killed a lot of guys with 0 ps alts but it's not recommended to go for it though since one bounce is mostly enough to get one killed.

Sure ive done that too. But when you need about 12 hits for your opponent ( not counting glances ) where he needs 1 - 2 hits, hits faster, does not glance and has at least the same skill level as you, you will probably loose 95% of all duels.

However, what you're saying about fully loomed archers not being devestating at range and/or in melee is way off. Just look at cupid and bagge for example.

Well I can understand your reaction. There are archers who topscore quite often, not to mention jambi. This is a very touchy topic. I will not question the skill of these top tier archers but even they are not as OP as they seem. A good archer may be able to compute arrow flight time and distance to target better, out of a habbit so to speak and can therefore adjust elevation and leading faster. But even for these people the same rule applies, the longer the range the more luck dependent shots get. Ive played with and against Cup1d, bagge, jambi, Blackbow, Revenant, arrowblood, zerobot, robinhood and all the other famous archers at least some time now. No one of these people ever owned me in a ranged duel. Sure Ive been headshotted a few times by some of them but then again I headshotted them a few times when they were unaware but no one of these people were able to shoot me to pieces so far.

The point is archery is just as effective as your opponent lets it happen to be. No matter if Bagge or Jambi or Cup1d is shooting at me, when they do I can see where their bows are pointing and once an arrow is airborn I see it and I can dodge it, which only works if I afford enough situational awareness at that moment of course. If you are a melee trying to hunt me down and you are using the good ol zigzag approach chances are about 80% I shoot you in the face as it is a repeating movement pattern. If you are using the "lightspeed mousespin" dodging technique chances are about 90% I send a missile in your body, as many melees dont seem to know that turning at very fast speeds does not make you move at all because there still is a tiny bit of inertia. If you jump at me chances are 99% I hit your leg or your crotch. If you walk in a straight line for more than 3 second within a 40 feet radius of me chances are about 80% I put an arrow in your head. ALL of these things can be influenced by your movement, dropping the chances to be hit drasticly, yet many people just refuse to learn how to dodge (this is a good thing actually). But IF the person you are going to shoot at has played as an archer for some time himself and knows the weaknesses therefore, chances are high this person can even touch top tier archers without getting hit more than once ( which is the reason archer duels are boring, everyone just dodges ... ).

If you are one of these persons who expose their heads on siege for more than 1 second, who charge at the castle in straight line, who try to sneak up on my teammate with an overhead ready in a straight line, who take their shield down infront of me without bumping me first, who charge me with a horse without a shield, who know im shooting at you but just refuse to dodge because im far away, who use predictable and repeating dodging patterns, who are sneaking up behind me although I noticed you a long time ago due to free look, thinking I didnt, who dont look around every now and then to check for enemy ranged, AND if on this particular shot my arrow goes where I want it to go, then dont get supprised or mad when you lie on the ground dead with in arrow in your body. You wouldnt get if you didnt block an incoming blow. Not dodging arrows is the same as not blocking swings. Sure a lot of times you will succeed even with the most basic techniques but there is alway a chance that at your next try his arrow will actually go where he aimed.

Then again you see a lot of famous archers that scored 15 - 3 in the first round going 2 - 6 in the next round just because random factors kicked in which is pretty disgusting. So well, they can be devastating, yes. But when they are it could be pure skill as well as it could be pure luck. I still think the degree of devastioned you can achieve is far inferior to melee and far more capped, not really rewarding you for all that time you invest into training it. I can imagine someone having the same skill in melee combat as Jambi has in archery ( hard to compare I know ) could end up with over 40 kills a map quite often.

This is a joke, right? 6 PD is by far enough to make a very viable archer. If you got heirlooms too I would see no reason at all to go for more PD since you're gimping accuracy and kiting abilities for a too low gain in damage. I would rather just stack WM for accuracy. bagge with his loomed gear and 18/24 build was a two-shot machine. That's 6 PD for you.

I claim not deadly as missile speed is not suitible for hitting moving targets at long ranges consistently, also with 6 PD damage you deal at ... lets say 100m shots ( how long is the rageballfield for example ? ) is laughable. For shotgunning and close range headshots it works of course. The 2 shotting thing works for me at very close range on medium armor at most and I have a +2 longbow with +3 bodkins, so already dealing more damage than a +3 rus can achieve. Maybe 2 shotting machine was prenerf. On heavy armored people I still need up to 5 body shots every now and then at mid range.

For the last part, range is an important factor of course when it comes to dodging ...

Sorry for wall of text. Long story short, make archery more skill based, just as you said before.

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18/21 archer is already immensely op without looms atall, play in teamplay and you will have the real potential of your class revealed to you, lets sayif we had a 10 man squad with 1 to 3 archers with this build, andinfantry protects, archers will shoot all down eazely.  ( to eazely also because archers seem to do way more damage then melee 6pd > 6ps) you might find this overexacherating, but i tell you in team ballance archery is O the fuckin P and when i spend my rounds protecting archer nests i hardly ever lose 

I think no one doupts archers are OP once melee cooperate with them and vice versa. This is correct of course and therefore I take this as granted. But teamwork on a public game in this mod is just SO uncommon, especially between ranged and non ranged players, and then again between archers and melees. I think its in fact that rare its just negligible.

Also the gif is funny

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Lol. Having played both HA and foot archer, HA is a lot more challenging and skillful than foot archer.

Anyway, I have no problems with archery at the moment. Wearing heavy Yawshan it took 4 arrows from a warbow to kill me. Which is more than fair in my opinion.

No offense intended. Please dont get me wrong, I didnt mean to say that HA is a class for skillless people. I was choosing this word to better reflect Odins feelings about the situation as I could have imagined it.

[Rumblood]

In this thread we take extreme examples and pretend they are common. We also pretend that we are talking about current builds and not some mechanic from a year ago. We also pretend that archers weren't nerfed out of the archer/melee hybrid business and blame the archer because they are making pure archers and not an archer/melee hybrid.

Nerfing WPF in archery for every point in PD would be akin to nerfing the WPF and turn speed of melee for every point they take in Power Strike. In this thread we also pretend that statement isn't true.

[rufio]

we also pretend that archery dousnt have the rest of the game on theyr side: slow movement in general , specially on slopes, stun when hit by eny arrow,  no diversity in cover or the ability to take cover, the ability to block as effectively as eny melee character, higher body damage then melee with same builds, extremely higher headhit damage. the priveledge to chosse your fighting ground,  the potential to have a near constant damage out put, the potential to pick off targets together. the general advantage of being ranged.

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[Rumblood]

we also pretend that archery dousnt have the rest of the game on theyr side: slow movement in general , specially on slopes, stun when hit by eny arrow,  no diversity in cover or the ability to take cover, the ability to block as effectively as eny melee character, higher body damage then melee with same builds, extremely higher headhit damage. the priveledge to chosse your fighting ground,  the potential to have a near constant damage out put, the potential to pick off targets together. the general advantage of being ranged.

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[rufio]

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