Author Topic: Dear devs...  (Read 3650 times)

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Offline Joker86

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Dear devs...
« on: February 08, 2012, 01:44:19 am »
+18
Hi!

This topic is directed to the devs, as I would like to get an aswer from them, but I fear if I write a PM or something like that I could end up ignored, so perhaps, if the community shares some interest in my questions, it could make you give us a proper answer.

The question is quite easy:


How do you want cRPG to be like?


I ask this in terms of general gameplay and more or less even "genre". Like "what is your shooter supposed to be like? Like Counter Strike, almost entirely skill based? Or like Raven Shield, more tactical? Or like Unreal Tournament, arcade like? Or do you want something completely different, like Global Agenda, which is more or less a World of Warcraft shooter."

Do you want to reward players for good skills? Or for good teamplay? Or both? In which relation? How far do you want to incorporate those "indifferent casual" players?

I ask this because I think cRPG has achieved quite a good state in terms of fighting with the different classes, and although there are a few minor issues and imbalances left, the game is pretty much playable. But in my eyes this can be improved further.

Flaming, whining, complaining and trolling belongs to cRPG more than to any other game I know. And in my eyes you maneuvered yourself into a vicious circle of nerfing, where any further step forward would make things worse than better. And I guess I found one source of the problems to balance items properly:


One important aspect of balancing:

You have two aspects to concern: the average player performance (APP) with an item, and the best performance possible (BPP) with a class/item.

BOTH of those aspects need to be balanced, for every class.

(click to show/hide)


And this is where I see the core problem of cRPG. Because the APP is less dependant on skill than most would expect, it's also heavily dependant on knowledge and the right behaviour. And this is why cRPG fails to achieve final balance, and constantly has problems balancing the other classes in relation to infantry. It's because infantry has a lower APP than the other classes, due to simple lack of knowledge. Otherwise you wouldn't have autowalkers being killed by cavalry after spawning every single fucking round. The success of infantry depends more on the performance of its enemy than of any other class. That's why it depends more on "secondary" skills like knowledge to be effective. If the average knowledge of infantry players would increase, the class wouldn't seem so UP in many situations any more. Cavalry made by far the most kills and was dominating the servers before the last patch, although they were not considerably buffed or something like that. It could have lead to the conclusion that cav was OP, but it was not. Infantry was stupid and played like lemmings, making it easy for cav.

Short: moving the APP closer to the BPP does not only make balancing easier, I think the general gameplay benefits from it.

Now how can this problem be solved?

I see three possible solutions, and if they got combined I guess the effect would be even better:

1.: Better access to the mod for new players
2.: Implementing a good commander system
3.: Replacing battle mode with another, similar game mode


1.: Better access to the mod for new players

I think in this matter you can take new players like children. What they learn during their first steps will determine the rest of their life. Currently they don't learn anything. All they see is you get better skills and better equipment, like in single player, so they assume the goal of the game is to reach the single player end game where you slaughter hundreds of bots in plate armour with your superior skills, with the only difference that it's real players and not bots you are killing, making you feel even more awesome. This game is about killing people. I think this is one source of the enormous amount of lemmings on the servers. They approach the game with wrong impressions, and create bad habits.

This can be dealt with easily by implementing a few introduction pages before being able to download the launcher or creating a character. If you would read "Warning! This mod is not only about killing others, it's about making your team win!" before downloading it, you would approach it with a completely different attitude. A few easily accessable (main page, character page) tutorial videos which are presented properly ("You will not have fun in this mod or kill anybody unless you realized the things told in this video") could change a lot. Just make them entertaining, fun and short, and you can teach people a lot of good behaviours, which some veteran players haven't developed until today yet.



2.: Implementing a good commander system

There is not much to say about. Find a system which determines a commander, best would be without needing active participation of the players on the servers (ignorance, still can be fought by a good access to the game like "when joining a server make sure you have a commander. If he is good, you will be more successful, level up faster and gain more gold, and last but not least scoring more kills. If you want to be successful, elect a commander"), and every player needs to be in this command system by default. They can leave it, but it is important that they don't need to join it actively. (Again, i want to get the indifferent players, too). The commander should be able to place different flags like "attack here" "defend" or "stay away!", have an own chat colour, and most important, being able to write big messages over the center of the screen like "Attack!" "Fall back!" or "Cavalry behind!". Another important part is to reward players for following orders by small amounts of gold and/or XP, to create a motivation for players who are indifferent about tactics but like to develop their character faster. Don't make it more than one or two generations more would bring per map.

I know many of you players don't like following the orders of someone else, but like I said, you are always free to leave the command system, not seeing any flags or messages on your screen. It's just that some classes need more teamplay than others, and this should be taken into account to make the game balanced and fair.

Summary:

Implement a command system with...
... commanders being elected with a little active play participation needed as possible
... every player having it activated by default
... the commander being able to place flags and write screen messages
... players being rewarded for following orders
... players always being allowed to deactivate the system


3.: Replacing the battle mode with something similar

The worst thing about the battle mode is, that you need to kill the enemy team to win, which means killing is the goal of the game. I think this is a bad thing for the overall gameplay, and the popularity of siege and rageball modes shows, that players do not neccessarily need to have to kill people to have fun. That's why I would prefer something different. I didn't think a lot about this topic yet, but my first idea would be something like a "domination" mode.

On a normal battle map you have a number of flag points placed, I would say three or five is perfectly enough (rather three than five). The points are placed along the "front line" between the teams, in equal distance to both team spawns. Each of these spawn points, once captured, grants a number of respawns for your own team. You can choose at which flag point you want to spawn, or whether you want to spawn at the initial spawn point at the beginning of the round. Respawns come in in waves, for both teams simultaneously, representing reinforcements/rearguards arriving at the battlefield. Once a flag changes the owner the spawn points won't get refilled, which means it's best to conquer a flag soon and keep it for the rest of the map. Your team has won once it owns all flags, the majority of all flags for a certain time (make a "ressource" deplete whenever you have less flags than the enemy, once it reaches 0 you lost) or all enemies are killed and can't respawn. This way coordination and teamplay becomes much more important, and infantry, which is probably the most important class for holding ground, or attacking, gains importance and effectivity.

Another nice side effect is, that you actually don't want to kill too many enemies before attempting to take one of their flags, otherwise you will conquer it with only a few spawn points left.


Now this is what I wanted to say. Improve the COOPERATIVE interaction with other players, instead of only concentrating on HOSTILE interaction, calld fighting. The game has so much more depth, don't reduce it to a simple hack'n'slay reflex game. I would just like to know if this is a direction of development the devs would agree to, or do you have another idea of how cRPG should be?

And no, I don't want to join a clan.


Edit: no whining about certain classes! Unless the purpose of pointing out a weakness of a certain class is just for the sake of discussing about general gameplay mechanics, keep your complaints for yourself! There are enough other topics for it around the forum!

Edit2: Just for the sake of turning a few opinions into my favour: if you are...
... archer
... crossbowman
... thrower
... cavalry
... horse archer
... anything else not being infantry, that has been nerfed recently: the ideas in this topic could lead to your class getting buffed again.  :wink:
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 02:27:05 am by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Zerran

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Re: Dear devs...
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2012, 02:02:27 am »
+3
Another joker post!!!!

1: YES! We really need some way to clearly direct newbies to the guides and beginner's sections of the forums. I didn't even realize those were there until I had played for a good bit of time. Just some really easy to see links on the char page would be nice. Also a message popping up after creating the account that tells people they really need to read the beginner guides.

2: It would be nice to have some more commander based actions available. Teamplay is much more fun, imo, than running around randomly, but it's very hard to do this right now without a clan. It might just be the community though, in which case there's not much that can be done about it.

3: I don't want to see battle replaced, I genuinely like it. HOWEVER, I would really really like to see the mode you suggest here implemented as an additional gamestyle. I've always loved capture and hold style games. They really enforce teamwork just by their very nature, and have a very distinct goal. Devs, please do something like this!  :(
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Offline Miwiw

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Re: Dear devs...
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2012, 02:10:05 am »
0
And no, I don't want to join a clan.

 :lol:

--

2) Interesting, but I am playing public so I can actually play like I want (and not following commands), but if made, people can use it, sure, would be a good addtion for some.

3) Battle Mode is amazing. A game where you have weapons, is surely also about killing each other, so it does make sense. Actually it is not needed to kill everyone, because of the flags which are spawning or the timer running out. However that never happens (are flags enabled in crpg?, and timer does really never run out as delaying is not allowed). There can also be new game modes for sure, but dont scratch an old and successful mode.
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Dear devs...
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2012, 02:20:19 am »
+2
Well, apparently I receive some critics touching that sacred game mode...  :mrgreen:

Actually my hope/dreams, never mind how naive/utopic they are, would be that the battle mode gets removed and replaced by the other mode. People would cry and complain and GTX (to log in the other next day again) and try out the new gamemode. They would play it like battle mode, but would still stuck to an average multiplier of something between x1 and x2, because with players respawning even the team with more kills can lose, and the game would become more luck dependant than before. People would lose money, and their equipment would break, and they would be forced to do something about it. A few of them would realize that organizing the team and striking coordinatedly would be the only way to reach a x5, and teamplay would increase on the servers. People who would not be that far would notice increased chat contribution and teams playing more effectively together, so that their lemming charges are rendered more and more useless, forcing them to use tactics themselves. And after some time people would know by default what's to do after joining the server, which flag is to be attacked/defended or what you have to do to support your teammates with your particular class. And after some months, propably around christmas again, the developers would make a battle server with the old game mode (like setting up old cRPG last year), and people would join it for the sake of nostalgia, but somehow the battles would seem boring, onedimensional and stupid, with both teams rushing and killing each other, without mind, without soul.

As I said, in my dreams...  :?
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline MR_FISTA

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Re: Dear devs...
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2012, 02:20:40 am »
-10

Offline Joker86

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Re: Dear devs...
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2012, 02:24:23 am »
+5
Didn't Read LOL

I am sorry to hear that. But I am sure there will be good schools for disabled people with limited attention spans, and I heard of a few very good programs to integrate such people into common life, getting them an easy job where they can't make a lot wrong and getting cheaper bus tickets and stuff like that. Just keep it up, never give up!  :D


 :P
Joker makes a very good point.
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Re: Dear devs...
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2012, 02:29:38 am »
0
lol at ^

but I read you text, found rather good idea (that pesty tutorial noob newb our friendly newbomer we all love and dream on video would be perfect!
on the battle, meh... deathmatch would be awesome! (finally not caring if a teammate want to eat my over 9000 meter flamberge...)

commander : just put everyone on battalion #1 automatic, other battalion woulod be for true clan teamworker!

GOOD WORK !!!!11!!1!!!11!!ONE!!11!1!!

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Offline MR_FISTA

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Re: Dear devs...
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2012, 02:37:20 am »
-4
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Offline San

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Re: Dear devs...
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2012, 02:38:10 am »
+1
It would be nice to hear what the devs have to say, even if it's vague. Visions may be different for different people (ex. the item balancers). I doubt they should have to be the ones to create a video, though.


2. My issues with the commander system
a. Classes:
Infantry,cav, and ranged all have different duties across the map. A commander of 1 class won't be able to properly direct the others. I believe there should be multiple commanders available per team.

b. Clans:
Even with commanders, there will be a chance that some clans may have their own ideas/strategies that may or may not conflict with the commander's.

This leads to my conclusion:

If there is a commander system, it probably shouldn't all be automated:
In other words, there can be known leaders in-game that apply/ask on the forums for a permanent commander position. There should be some sort of regularity for who has commander.

3. Somewhat disagree for this replacing battle. Mostly because maps will have to be tailor-made for that game mode based on your description of the flag placements.

EDIT: About BPP and APP, it's difficult to adjust because the different weapon classes all have their timings and sweetspots. Cost and other factors (variance of length, speed, specialization, etc.) dictate that some items will be worse than others within the same class. Class performance depends on a matchup with another class. This is ignoring any specialized weapons within the class.

It's difficult to ignore that the core gameplay mechanics have a bit of a learning curve.

Making APP closer to BPP to me, translates to dumbing down game mechanics. Footwork, blocking, and offensive means to land strikes all take time and effort to learn, and I can't imagine many ways to change this other than discovering more efficient ways to get better at those things for newer players.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 02:46:29 am by san. »

Offline Joker86

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Re: Dear devs...
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2012, 03:03:14 am »
+3
Well, sure as hell you are right about this. All I want to say is: a lot of infantry sucks. Really. Conncet to the server and don't fight, just watch what your temmates do. You will observe the following things.

- autowalkers getting lanced while running to the middle of the map, after having spawned
- you will encounter one or two single infantrymen charging four or more enemies a bit off the center of the map, trying to kill them all
- you will see enemy cavalrymen getting unhorsed, and about seven to eight players rushing by, killing the rider and two teammates, and then the arrows from the surrounding archers arrive and kill yet another teammate
- teams defending hills will stand on top of the hill, exposing themselves to enemy fire, instead of waiting a few steps behind it, in cover
- teams will not hesitate to charge through bottlenecks where the enemy team is waiting in a half-circle around the exit, gangbanging everyone who comes through
- after the big melee people run in all directions to look for enemies, instead of regrouping. That's why 5 clan players who stick together can kill 20 surviving enemies one by one and win the map

And a lot more things, which don't require reflexes or something like that, only knowledge and a few habits. Bad players will still lose against good players, but perhaps the gap won't be that big. Actually I even see so called "good players" with good fighting skills making mistakes like above. You can have good fighters and you can have good teamplayers, and if you are lucky some players are both. But most are not.

Edit: About the commander: actually we agree on this, as I suggested to determine commanders by forum vote. They volunteer, and get a permanent commander-tag, which is constantly bound to their key, just like admin rights are. With two or more commanders they always get balanced into opposing teams, if there is only one or no commander at all, the command system will be disabled.

And I don't think there should be many problems with the different classes. All in all you got only three main classes, anyway, which is infantry, archers and cavalry. In most cases the commander will only say where the infantry should go, where the archers should shoot from (usually an elevated, covered spot, protected by infantry) and he will let the cavalry lose to hunt down single unaware enemies. The rest is done by the players themselves, the commander won't be able to get that deep into micromanagment to give bad advice for certain classes. And don't forget, we agree that they should be elected in the forum, so you can assume they know what they do, never mind which classes they are giving orders to.

The thing about clans is the same like with any other player that doesn't want to participate: the commander has either to ignore them and treat them like they were not in his team, or, if it's a clan and they're doing their own thing: he can either talk to them, support their idea, or he can try to get some benefit from their tactic. Even if it is sacrificing them to hold a certain flank for a minute while attacking the other with the rest of the team. I mean: it's still their choice!  :twisted:
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 03:15:17 am by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Meow

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Re: Dear devs...
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2012, 03:20:56 am »
+4
Well, I actually read it all, can in no way give an official reply but will let you know that you highly overestimate the amount people read anywhere on the internet ever.

Most people are conditioned to press OK/Accept/Ignore as soon as a message pops.
I saw the amount of people deleting/STFing their mains although warnings pop.
I saw the amount of people who put fail trades up because they clicked OK twice when a warning popped up asking if they really want to offer that trade...

If you think stuff like "Warning! This mod is not only about killing others, it's about making your team win!" would have any impact then let me tell you: If anything it would get the few people's hopes up that actually read it just so they can be shattered again the first time they spawn into a blob of voice spamming, wildly swining trolls :mrgreen:

I am not sure where this whole thing is going but i will go with mainly into Strat and Battlegroups direction for now.
Making it more interesting for clans and competitive play seems way to go to get more players as well as more teamplay.

I have to repeat, this is a project that is supposed to be fun to play and to develop, all the haters who can not get that into their heads can gtfo.
Mainly aimed at the people who are raging at some devs lately, just because they didn't bother to get any information.

Also i would not expect final balance to be achieved ever.
Min maxing + flavor of the month attitude in combination with an endless grind will require a constant tweaking to get class numbers in line.
Don't get me wrong i like the community I just think you are expecting something from public servers that is plain impossible, improvements can be made for sure.

Just my opinion - good luck with getting a real plan on what's happening :mrgreen:

Offline Bongo Fury

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Re: Dear devs...
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2012, 04:40:25 am »
0
Think that's a bit harsh, alot of good points in the OP.

I do think battle needs some new maps, something, just to liven it up a bit.

Offline Kuyamzoleta

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Re: Dear devs...
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2012, 05:42:07 am »
0
Brilliant post. I honestly haven't ever seen a better constructive post in the general discussion thread.

When it comes to teamwork and things like that during battle, What I thought was a drastic improvement from last previous patches were the battalion keys and flags. This works well when working with clan-mates and friends in teamspeak/vent/mumble/skype/communication program. And it seems like the majority of pubbies follow the big groups anyway.

However I'd still like to see a more objective-based battle style game mode.
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Offline SixThumbs

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Re: Dear devs...
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2012, 05:59:22 am »
0
And how!

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Re: Dear devs...
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2012, 07:59:09 am »
0
God damnit Joker, I need a cup of coffee or two to start reading your damn dissertation. :lol:

---

I definitely am reminded of your chart (of hard and soft counters or whatever) when reading your introductory paragraph on APP vs. BPP.  Couldn't you also argue that, as infantry is probably the most populated class, the APP is lower, in part, due to turnover?  I.e.: Player batch "x" comes, certain percentage of player batch "x" stays, the rest leaves; certain percentage of player batch "x" increases in skill, the rest continue to autowalk into lances (like me) and die from being unable to dodge arrows (like me); player batch "y" comes, rinse and repeat process.  This is to say, the saturation of lower skill levels is more apparent in infantry because of its higher population?  This isn't to say that infantry is a forgiving class (like cavalry), or an unforgiving class (like archery), but certainly population has something to do with it?

1) This solution could be tried, but you can't necessarily shove the philosophy down a new player's throat.  At best, a new player will come out enlightened and a new member of the holy order of cRPG.  At worst, this new player will feel restricted as to his or her goals, and either quit or just be trollish and assholey.  Both reduce the population who don't try to help the team as much as succeed personally (two things which, as far as I can be convinced, are intrinsically linked), but the second one has the unfortunate side effect of breeding resentment against the mod and its community as a whole, which isn't necessary.

2) I started cringing until I read "players being allowed to deactivate the system."  Part of the fun, and interesting, part of public battles is that sometimes organization can arise sporadically and spontaneously, with multiple groups of people working collectively toward the same goal (the multiplier.)  If, somehow, you can change players' expectations (as in section 1) of the mod through conditioning, then a commander system seems more like it creates points A to B, and following points A to B yields more rewards; however, not following points A to B either yields no rewards, or actively penalizes, which reduces the amount of freedom players have (or think they have) within the game.  In my own, personal opinion, a commander system should only have the benefit of possibly (assuming you get a good commander) leading you to easily multipliers.  The only real interesting part I see in this system is going beyond the "everyone stick together and reenact The Blob.

3) This is reading like you want to implement a Battlefield-like system into the game, but want to somehow punish players for actively killing the opponent?  I got a little lost and confused at "Another nice side effect is, that you actually don't want to kill too many enemies before attempting to take one of their flags, otherwise you will conquer it with only a few spawn points left."  This, for me, raises the question: why should the team be penalized for taking the time to eradicate the active resistance to it?  I can understand wanting to get rid of the chaotic "kill everyone" aspect of battle, which can sometimes lead to a lot of idiocy, but this idiocy is also displayed in siege.  It might also be displayed in rageball, but I don't really play that at all.  The idea of a conquest gamemode with reinforcement waves based off held flags and such is interesting, but it seems like it could be a bit complex to implement: why not have (once again, as in Battlefield) a set number of reinforcements (scaled to the player population in the server, if that's possible) which allow for respawns.  If I'm correct, Strategus already does this based off how many troops the attacker/defender party has?

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