Let's Agree On Ranged Damage

[MrShine]

Pretty simple, exactly what do people want to see from ranged?  How many hits from full -> 0 hp is considered 'acceptable' to people?

Here is how I think ranged damage should work in general.  I'm assuming for this example that light inf has low armor AND hp, while heavy inf has high armor AND hp.  Of course things will always be a little different in practice.

1 Slot Bow (Horn, Yumi) :        1,2 shot peasants / 2,3 shot light inf / 3,4 shot mid inf / 4,5 shot heavy inf
2 Slot Bow (Rus, Long):           1,2 shot peasants/ 2 shot light inf / 2,3 shot mid inf / 3,4 shot heavy inf
1 Slot Xbow (Light, Regular):    1,2 shot peasants/ 2 shot light inf / 2,3 shot mid inf / 3 shot heavy inf
2 Slot Xbow (Heavy, Arbalest):   1 shot peasants / 1 shot light inf / 1,2 shot mid inf / 2 shot heavy inf
Throwing (mid tier):                1,2 shot peasants / 2 shot light inf / 3 shot mid inf / 3,4 shot heavy inf
Top Throw (throwing lance):       1 shot peasants / 1 shot light inf / 1 shot mid inf / 1,2 shot heavy inf



So as far as damage 'tiers' goes:
Top Tier
---------------
Top Throwing is strongest
2 Slot Xbow is next
----------------
Mid Tier
----------------
1 Slot Xbow
2 Slot Bow
----------------
Low Tier
----------------
Throwing
1 Slot Bow


I think stack size will need to be adjusted accordingly, for example, I think that things like low tier throwing weapons could be slightly bumped up, while xbow bolts might see a slight decrease in the amount of bolts per stack.


I think having a fundamental "starting point" could help normalize ranged damage and help with balance in general.
I'm sure it will be difficult to keep yourself from trolling, but before you say "I hate range, it should take twice as many hits across the board!" think about things like stack size, % miss chance, etc.  If it takes an archer an average of 5 hits to kill a mid level infantryman, that's 3 kills per stack of bodkins, assuming every single hit lands.  If it takes 2 throwing lances on average to kill a mid level infantryman, that's .5 kills per stack... again assuming accuracy.

[Meow]

Throwing is way off if you consider the ammo count.
Even if you pack 4 stacks of throwing axes you can kill only 4 people in a round if you pick your ammo back up and hit.

Also the whole example is kinda lacking considering builds.
You would totally need to add a PD/PT value, crossbows seem fine.

[Gristle]

I don't know the other weapons well enough, but I'll agree with you on the crossbows.

I have said a lot on this subject. For now I will simply restate something I said a few days ago, as I think it really showed how severe the nerf was.

I was approaching an archer the other day. I would slightly bob and weave just to make hitting my head difficult. He hit me around 7 times in the body, and needed at least 4 more body shots to kill me. He was killed by other melee before he could get those shots off. I was wearing 68 body armor (a lot) at the time, with 50 hit points (not a lot). He told me later that he had PD 6 and was using Bodkins (think he had a Tatar bow, but I forget).

Wearing the same armor while fighting in melee, I mostly get killed in 4 to 6 hits (sometimes less). This, to me, seems unbalanced.

People keep saying they like this change because only good archers should be able to get kills. Why can't the same be said for melee? I'm not the best fighter, but I get more melee kills than crossbow kills, even before this nerf. Getting melee kills is easier. For every Balbaroth there are 10 players that can barely block.

[POOPHAMMER]

Removed ranged

problem solved

[Dreadnought]

Being infranty i vote for nermy old friende

[Penitent]

These sounds pretty spot-on to me.

Of course there will be variation with builds, armor, shields, misses, etc...but this sounds perfect.

-Inf/Cav player

[MrShine]

Throwing is way off if you consider the ammo count.
Even if you pack 4 stacks of throwing axes you can kill only 4 people in a round if you pick your ammo back up and hit.

I agree, I was considering that throwers have a fast 'draw' speed with their attacks and are generally in close range, so picking up extras off the ground/hitting with a higher % of their attacks would in part compensate for their lower-ish damage.  But really I know very little about throwing and clustered a whole bunch of throwing in one line so yeah internal balance there would be needed.

Also the whole example is kinda lacking considering builds.
You would totally need to add a PD/PT value, crossbows seem fine.

Yeah the numbers are loose, I was hoping people would consider "the average thrower/archer".  Basically, if you saw an archer in the distance, you would expect to die in X hits. 

For the sake of argument let's assume 5-7 PD/PT

[Tydeus]

Meh... Loosely speaking, I'd agree on the crossbow part.

[_Tak_]

Nope throwing needs far more than 2/3 hit to kill a light infantry. i wear padded leather and a guy throw 6 axes to my body and i am still standing. with 27 str of course. The range nerf seems fine, works extremely great on strategus, if u go on strategus battle, archers usually get top score. but the throwing really needs a buff, no joke.

some main point:

archers needs like 3 jarid to kill them from body shot  (PT 5)

needs 2 throwing lance to kill an archer (PT 7 +)

throwing cannot 1 hit anymore to a naked peasant.

throwing has very very small ammo (thats why people forced to become archer/ melee)

any throwing weapons that damage is below throwing axe is a joke... (needs 15 throwing daggers to kill a normal infantry)

throwing is the hardest class in crpg (especially in stra battle)

throwing stones to peasant is not so funny anymore (deal less than 2 damage?)

[LastKaze]

The range nerf seems fine, works extremely great on strategus, if u go on strategus battle, archers usually get top score. but the throwing really needs a buff, no joke.

Thats false, ranged doesn't get top score, i've actually fought in a castle battle, and a 1h was topping the list with over 100 kills

[rustyspoon]

I don't like the bow damage, as it puts it on par with melee weapons. Being able to 2 or 3 shot someone in medium armor from across the map just seems kinda ridiculous to me. It will turn the game back into the shooting gallery that it was before the change.

[Aljo]

For every Balbaroth there are 10 players that can barely block.

Balb cant block for shit, lol.
Break his MP shield and u'll see he dies to anyone at least bit decent.

Nope throwing needs far more than 2/3 hit to kill a light infantry. i wear padded leather and a guy throw 6 axes to my body and i am still standing. bla bla bla bla

Dude, do you ever read the OP? Ever?
Its about how ranged should be not about how it is.

[Bobthehero]

2-3 shot to kill heavy infantry with a bow?

Oh oh oh I think not, unless its 100% headshots.

[Malaclypse]

I don't like the bow damage, as it puts it on par with melee weapons. Being able to 2 or 3 shot someone in medium armor from across the map just seems kinda ridiculous to me. It will turn the game back into the shooting gallery that it was before the change.

Agreed. If I'm lucky I can survive 4-5 body/leg hits from archers in a 36 body, 32 leg armor get-up, and that damage can come from vast distances away. It used to be I'd die in two shots most times. If you're considering that you aren't risking much of anything by shooting from a distance, 4-5 body hits isn't bad.

Basically I'd expect as medium infantry to die in 1-4 melee hits depending on PS and the weapon and assuming no head hits, 3-5 archery hits, 1-2 arbalest hits depending on heirlooms, 2-4 other xbow hits, and 1-4 throwing hits, in general.

[Thomek]

IDK..

I don't mind being 3 hitted as that is how many hits it takes to down the average medium armored foe like myself. (52 body armor with gloves)

2 hitting medium armor players is too brutal I think, as that would mean archers do more damage than most infantry do up close. It usually takes me at least 3 hits to down Khorin, who has similar build/armor as myself. (body armor hits)

I think the headshots idea from last patch was a good one. It just needs a bit of tweaking. Increase damage a little bit OR increase accuracy. Either arrow travel speed or bow accuracy.

Basically I think archers should have the dilemma between being a "Headshot Archer" an all round archer or a pure body armor hitting hard as hell (min 3 hits to down medium armor though) Archer.

Then builds and bows and arrows etc needs to be balanced around that..