Add "No Shield" to Bamboo Spear & Ashwood Pike

[a_bear_irl]

As the title says, I think that a no shield tag should be added to the Bamboo Spear and Ashwood Pike. Why?

The huscarl + ashwood/bamboo combo makes for a support character who can "poke" as effectively as someone with a longspear, but can survive a 1v1 or 1v2 nearly indefinitely. There are numerous "offensive" shields that can be used, plate covered and plate shields are also annoying, but the huscarl is the most annoying because it gives a ton of coverage making it hard to actually land any hits, in addition to its toughness. Lengthwise, an ashwood pike used with a shield has 227 length with the 1h stab bonus (+61 according to shik), and a bamboo spear has 261, compared to the longspear's 264 with 2h polearm stab bonus (+19 last i heard).

In addition to this, the ashwood and bamboo spear do not have the "unbalanced" trait, are cheaper (ashwood is 1k less, bamboo 2k less), are faster (ashwood 93, bamboo 90, long spear 81), and in the case of the ashwood, higher damaging (31p, longspear 26p). All this adds up to poor internal balance of support polearms.

Compare a Bamboo Spear + Huscarl to a Longspear. In trade for an autoblock (shield), 9 speed, and no unbalanced malus, you lose 1 damage and 3 length. If you were going to go pure support and didn't want to use a pike (terrible in every aspect except for length, and given that the bamboo spear isn't all that much shorter I don't see much of a reason to use a pike as pure support) there is basically no reason to use a long spear over a BS/SH combo.

The Ashwood Pike is similarly better than a longspear, except you lose 37 length and gain 12 speed and 6 damage. In addition to this it allows you to hold your own in a 1v1 situation due to the speed and the odd "activation" timing of polearm stabbing. It's also nearly the same as the awlpike which also recently had a "no shield" tag added.

Lastly, the latest balance patch was clearly intended to reduce the ability of support to function once in close combat - Nerfs to speed, unbalanced tags, no overhand on the longspear, removed awlpike+shield, 3 slots - and the ashwood/bamboo+shield combo still falls into the category of "support that is hard to kill up close".

I think the bamboo spear is still plenty viable if it were made no-shield because of its speed, cheapness and good length, however if ashwood pike were made no-shield I think it would need buffing to remain useful, maybe add sideswings to make it a longer, cheaper alternative to a warspear.

[Civilian]

Hoplites do not need any nerfs. Ashwood Pike and Bamboo Spear are fine.

It takes pretty much at least good 3 hits for me to kill medium armor targets. Funny hitting strength build players with 4-5 hits only to get hacked down in 1.

If you can't not down block  to close into a hoplite then you are doing something wrong. If you feel like the shield is the issue bring a maul or an axe. It is hard for a hoplite to escape the maul unless it is in light armor and agi based.

Bamboo spear is too weak and too long to be a effective hoplite weapon. Bounces too easy off of random things.

You can not stab someone so easy when they up in your face with Ashwood Pike/Shield. Have to create some distance to do so. The 2-hand pikers are alot more destructive in that regard.

The Awlpike change was more due to realism of holding a awlpike in one hand.

[Tears of Destiny]

Just another indirect buff to cav thread from Bear, move along.

[San]

Lengthwise, an ashwood pike used with a shield has 227 length with the 1h stab bonus (+61 according to shik), and a bamboo spear has 261, compared to the longspear's 264 with 2h polearm stab bonus (+19 last i heard).

I believe the length bonus  is +50. I think +61 is the ranged bonus for stab on 1h.

In addition to this, the ashwood and bamboo spear do not have the "unbalanced" trait, are cheaper (ashwood is 1k less, bamboo 2k less), are faster (ashwood 93, bamboo 90, long spear 81), and in the case of the ashwood, higher damaging (31p, longspear 26p). All this adds up to poor internal balance of support polearms.

Are you aware that there is a large (maybe 50%?) damage reduction as well as a pretty hefty speed reduction when you have a shield with the spear? When I was a hoplite with very low polearm wpf, I couldn't really attack after a block as well as if I had no shield. Imo, the only thing that makes hoplite stupid is the polestun.

Compare a Bamboo Spear + Huscarl to a Longspear. In trade for an autoblock (shield), 9 speed, and no unbalanced malus, you lose 1 damage and 3 length. If you were going to go pure support and didn't want to use a pike (terrible in every aspect except for length, and given that the bamboo spear isn't all that much shorter I don't see much of a reason to use a pike as pure support) there is basically no reason to use a long spear over a BS/SH combo.

Pikes are long, more damaging, and faster upon release. The shield helps with protection vs range and helps in situations where you're caught off guard such as turning around and seeing a cav trying to couch you or something. I think hoplite has a very good defense against most ranged and cavalry.

The Ashwood Pike is similarly better than a longspear, except you lose 37 length and gain 12 speed and 6 damage. In addition to this it allows you to hold your own in a 1v1 situation due to the speed and the odd "activation" timing of polearm stabbing. It's also nearly the same as the awlpike which also recently had a "no shield" tag added.

By 1v1 situation, I assume you mean taking off the shield? Hoplite is pretty difficult against a full health opponent 1v1, since you do little damage even when you get hits unless you get speed bonus from opponents running into you. You can have a decent time with weapons like war spear without shield, but I doubt you can do as well with the ashwood (and bamboo is usable with shield? I never bothered to try). Not to mention that they are unsheathable so you have to be pretty devoted to that weapon as long as cav are still there.

Lastly, the latest balance patch was clearly intended to reduce the ability of support to function once in close combat - Nerfs to speed, unbalanced tags, no overhand on the longspear, removed awlpike+shield, 3 slots - and the ashwood/bamboo+shield combo still falls into the category of "support that is hard to kill up close".

I think being unsheathable helps for these kinds of weapons. I think you  can make a better case for the war spear, but it is short enough where you need good timing to beat cav and you need to get relatively close to other infantry.

I think the bamboo spear is still plenty viable if it were made no-shield because of its speed, cheapness and good length, however if ashwood pike were made no-shield I think it would need buffing to remain useful, maybe add sideswings to make it a longer, cheaper alternative to a warspear.

Maybe, but 200 length side swings sounds pretty crazy to me. I don't really have much opinion on the bamboo spear.