Crushtrough - My take on a fix

[Xant]

1h are at a minor disadvantage at best when fighting without a shield vs 2h. If you block well, then the IF won't really be missed either, so no skill point disadvantage. 1h has the best animations, hardest to read. Overhead/left swing are particularly nice, and even though the thrust isn't nowhere near as good as 2h swords, it can still be tricky.

2H is dominating because most skilled players go 2h. When a skilled player goes 1h+shield like (well okay total NOOB but shows how easy shielding is) Olwen they can easily top the scoreboards because you can kill the average and below skilled players with no risk at all (from either ranged or melee.)

UrLukur, I can duel you in native with an arming sword while you have a Greatsword. Fact is, I haven't seen a single person who's skilled at dueling claim that 1h swords have "shitty animations." And I'm not saying 1h is superior, no, the animation advantage is counterbalanced by weight and reach advantage (damage doesn't really matter, 1h animations tend to hit the head pretty much automatically), plus the 2h thrust animation is cool.

[UrLukur]

1h are at a minor disadvantage at best when fighting without a shield vs 2h. If you block well, then the IF won't really be missed either, so no skill point disadvantage. 1h has the best animations, hardest to read. Overhead/left swing are particularly nice, and even though the thrust isn't nowhere near as good as 2h swords, it can still be tricky.

2H is dominating because most skilled players go 2h. When a skilled player goes 1h+shield like (well okay total NOOB but shows how easy shielding is) Olwen they can easily top the scoreboards because you can kill the average and below skilled players with no risk at all (from either ranged or melee.)

UrLukur, I can duel you in native with an arming sword while you have a Greatsword. Fact is, I haven't seen a single person who's skilled at dueling claim that 1h swords have "shitty animations." And I'm not saying 1h is superior, no, the animation advantage is counterbalanced by weight and reach advantage (damage doesn't really matter, 1h animations tend to hit the head pretty much automatically), plus the 2h thrust animation is cool.

1h have shitty footwork with shield, without shield footwork is comparable. 2h have range advantage, that coupled with footwork advantage, build advantage and animations advantage owns against the shield.

That super side strike have -20 range, and require aim, it's not instant head hit, every strike can be aimed.

2h is dominating because it's most powerful. Everyone can top the scoreboard. ATM i top it. It's not telling anything about it's duel abilities.

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I can duel with you too. 2h have better animations.

[Mattressi]

1h when shield is on have disadvantage in feinting.

Care to explain why? I find feinting a lot easier with my shielder because I don't have to worry about directional blocking.

When it's off, they don't have initiative to feint (range, range, range).

Only if you've made a really slow turtle build which can't run faster forwards than the average player can run backwards.

Not really faster than even greatswords, due to multiple factors (stun), with light shields happens.

Wait, what!? You think that getting stunned once off (haven't had it happen to me more than once in a fight with someone) means that a scimitar or side sword is slower than a greatsword? What other factors do you have in mind?

Polearms also have to buy pike to counter cav.

Polearm users are expected to have to use polearms...what's your point? Regardless, my polearm alts can take out almost any cav (except the very best) with a long voulge or even the long hafted blade.

Shield is not only protection against ranged but also burden (sloooooooow, cant dodge well).

I find it a great burden to not be able to dodge those arrows and, instead, only soak thousands of them up with my huscarl.

2h is great for teamwork, it's already great in melee. Just help your team, not expect to go solo.  2h is dominating the servers, it's surely not UP. More like OP.

I have to agree with Xant on this; the more skilled players go with 2h/polearm builds. I don't think I'm amazingly skilled, but I find my thrower and turtle builds too easy to be fun (except as stress relief), so I prefer to play my 2h and polearm builds.

Also, to put it bluntly, you have problem just with huscarl and side sword.

I'm not sure what this means (I can't understand what you're trying to say). I think you're saying that I'm only complaining about the huscarl and side sword. Even if I was, that's still a viable weapon selection (just because there're others, doesn't mean people won't choose the best). However, I'm talking about a range of shields (though huscarl stands out as the worst; I turtled a guy with a polaxe today and he hit my shield 6 times without it even coming close to breaking...he didn't get a 7 because he was dead and I still had full health) and a range of weapons (elite scim, cav sword with it's ridiculous range, etc).

1h have shitty footwork with shield, without shield footwork is comparable. 2h have range advantage, that coupled with footwork advantage, build advantage and animations advantage owns against the shield.

You've really gotta drop some of this stuff. Build advantage? Because they might have put those 6 or so shield points into an extra 3 agi or str? That's meant to give them some massive advantage over you when you don't even have to manual block? The animations aren't an advantage; the swings with 1h seem as fast to me as 2h, except 1h swings are harder to see. 2H stab further, that's it. Shouldn't be a problem if you know how to click the right mouse button.

That super side strike have -20 range, and require aim, it's not instant head hit, every strike can be aimed.

Most of my left to right swings with my 1h are head shots, unless I'm looking at their feet.

2h is dominating because it's most powerful. Everyone can top the scoreboard. ATM i top it. It's not telling anything about it's duel abilities.

I can duel with you too. 2h have better animations.

I really have trouble understanding what you write. I can't tell if you have no point or if you simply can't express it well.

Anyway, in light of this thread I spent most of my game time today picking 1v1 fights with 2h and polearm users. Occasionally they won (some of the absolutely amazing players can block basically anything), but most players who weren't renowned for being the best on the server lost significantly more than they won. My shield was rarely broken (aside from when I got ganked) and when it was the enemy usually had very little health left and died quickly. I'm not saying I'm skilled; I would never beat people 1v1 that much with my 2h - I'm saying shielding is easy mode for duelling.

Edit: I can barely even see that picture; it's so bloody small! Upload the full size version, not the thumbnail!

[Xant]

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Cool screenshot, bro. Maybe you wanna resize it a bit more so your score will be a bit more impossible to see.

Also, the thing is:

As a 2h against a shielder, you have to take a LOT of risks to end the fight in a sensible amount of time. As a shielder, you don't have to take any risks because the 2her actually has to manual block. The 2her on the other hand needs to get you as you're attacking = small window of opportunity and you're likely to get hit.

[v/onMega]

Whow...

Cant wait what nerf thread will be next...funny its always a majority of midskillers to complain about basiclly everything...

BarMace / HeavyIron will disappear, next thread will be about the maul (wooden lil piece)
Will be the best crush through (specially triple loom) weapon just as predicted 2  months ago...

Guys so allrdy get ur notepads out.
Its price is too low, its too fast and it does too much dmg.

Here is your arguements for the next thread in 3 weeks.

[UrLukur]

Care to explain why? I find feinting a lot easier with my shielder because I don't have to worry about directional blocking.

There is delay. Also, against half decent pole/2h you can't really feint without great footwork as they can hit you twice in a row.

Only if you've made a really slow turtle build which can't run faster forwards than the average player can run backwards.

Okay, in other words, initiative means that longer animation+weapon have longer threat zone. So 2h players have first opportunity to strike.

Wait, what!? You think that getting stunned once off (haven't had it happen to me more than once in a fight with someone) means that a scimitar or side sword is slower than a greatsword? What other factors do you have in mind?

Start using other shields than huscarl one and you'll notice stun. Yes it means it's slower, just fight phyrex. Turning into swings for 2h and 1h and bouncing off with 1h weapons more than with 2h, animations.

Polearm users are expected to have to use polearms...what's your point? Regardless, my polearm alts can take out almost any cav (except the very best) with a long voulge or even the long hafted blade.

As you said, you have problems with skilled players with heavy lance, even i with side sword can kill cav like there is no tomorrow, if those are nub cakes.

I find it a great burden to not be able to dodge those arrows and, instead, only soak thousands of them up with my huscarl.

Once again you raised point of huscarl, try it with kite shields. Try it against decent archers who know how to crossfire.

I have to agree with Xant on this; the more skilled players go with 2h/polearm builds. I don't think I'm amazingly skilled, but I find my thrower and turtle builds too easy to be fun (except as stress relief), so I prefer to play my 2h and polearm builds.

Not really, 1h require more effort in attack phase. Thrower is bit easy, true.

I'm not sure what this means (I can't understand what you're trying to say). I think you're saying that I'm only complaining about the huscarl and side sword. Even if I was, that's still a viable weapon selection (just because there're others, doesn't mean people won't choose the best). However, I'm talking about a range of shields (though huscarl stands out as the worst; I turtled a guy with a polaxe today and he hit my shield 6 times without it even coming close to breaking...he didn't get a 7 because he was dead and I still had full health) and a range of weapons (elite scim, cav sword with it's ridiculous range, etc).

Range of shields ? what else, other round ones ? tower and kite are not so easy, try it out. Elite scimi is not that scary anymore. Cav swords have lower range than your poles and 2h, you just dont get used that 1h can attack first. They are not very good in ground melee anyway.

You've really gotta drop some of this stuff. Build advantage? Because they might have put those 6 or so shield points into an extra 3 agi or str? That's meant to give them some massive advantage over you when you don't even have to manual block? The animations aren't an advantage; the swings with 1h seem as fast to me as 2h, except 1h swings are harder to see. 2H stab further, that's it. Shouldn't be a problem if you know how to click the right mouse button.

1h stab and right swing sucks a bit. 3 agi is a lot, or 6 throwing ... Manual block is not that hard.

Most of my left to right swings with my 1h are head shots, unless I'm looking at their feet.

Why most of your 2h swings aren't headshots then ? Oh, you don't have to do headshots anyway with your damage output.

Anyway, in light of this thread I spent most of my game time today picking 1v1 fights with 2h and polearm users. Occasionally they won (some of the absolutely amazing players can block basically anything), but most players who weren't renowned for being the best on the server lost significantly more than they won. My shield was rarely broken (aside from when I got ganked) and when it was the enemy usually had very little health left and died quickly. I'm not saying I'm skilled; I would never beat people 1v1 that much with my 2h - I'm saying shielding is easy mode for duelling.

Edit: I can barely even see that picture; it's so bloody small! Upload the full size version, not the thumbnail!

You have shield against one or two opponents, 2h and poles dont break.


Pics. On third map game crashed, second map was ended similar to first, something like 23-3 or similar. Third was 8-2 or 7-1, i dunno, not the top.

(click to show/hide)

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[Xant]

So... what was the point again? That with 1h+shield even you can get on top of the scoreboard once in a while? (7-0, lulz)

I mean honestly, what? I thought you'd be posting screenshots of you pwning with 2h, that might've meant something. But right now... wut?

[Mattressi]

I give up. It's useless: I have many different builds and am talking specifically about my personal experiences with them. You can't convince me that my shielder is somehow disadvantaged in a duel vs 2h or polearm because I have slaughtered people with it whom I would normally have a 50/50 chance of beating with my 2h or polearm alts.

Using a shield is easy mode. If you're not one of the best players on the server, you will find melee easier with a shield build. The best players on my server would likely find a shield as easy as 2h/polearm, but that's only because they seem to be able to manual block like a robot. Anyone that can't block 20 swings in a row (plus account for feints) from two or more players at once will likely find shielding much easier.

I think most shields are OK, but the huscarl shield and heirloomed shields take way too much of a beating to get through. I duel (if you can call it that with a shield) with a huscarl because it takes so damn long to break with a high tier axe and I barely notice the slight reduction in speed. I have, however, used other shields as well (board, kite and heater) and find that they're still very easy to win with when fighting someone without an axe.

BTW, thanks for posting the pictures showing you dominating as a shielder...that really strengthens your point...somehow?

[Xant]

hanks for posting the pictures showing you dominating as a shielder...that really strengthens your point...somehow?

LOL yeah, welcome to UrLukur logic.

And it is pointless arguing with him, yes. you've tried several different builds, he hasn't. and he's not willing to try 2h either. Sooo..

[UrLukur]

So... what was the point again? That with 1h+shield even you can get on top of the scoreboard once in a while? (7-0, lulz)

I mean honestly, what? I thought you'd be posting screenshots of you pwning with 2h, that might've meant something. But right now... wut?

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I'm not going to try 2h or pole/throwing, i know it's easy. I don't have that much free time to spare.

[Xant]

Oh, shit! It's... 12-2!

HELL NAW!!!!


(.... in native, too, not cRPG.)

LOL that shit's hilarious, you keep a 12-2 screenshot of yourself like a prized possession apparently. And you're on a stacked clanteam vs some randoms 

[Magikarp]

This ain't a thread for discussing 2h vs 1h shielders 

This is a thread about balancing crush trough, alltogether, instead of removing it step by step.

[UrLukur]

Oh, shit! It's... 12-2!

HELL NAW!!!!


(.... in native, too, not cRPG.)

LOL that shit's hilarious, you keep a 12-2 screenshot of yourself like a prized possession apparently. And you're on a stacked clanteam vs some randoms 

Old screen, i rarely do screens. I just did 3 kills in one round with 2h in cRPG.

[Xant]

Old screen, i rarely do screens. I just did 3 kills in one round with 2h in cRPG.

Oh, no you didn't!!! Foreals?! Tell me you didn't!

[Mattressi]

That still doesn't strengthen your argument UrLurker: I'm talking about balancing 1v1. I can see no advantage for 2h (I'm talking grand scheme of things; not 'he has 20 more range!') in a duel. Which class are they supposed to be better than? Or do you believe they should be slaughtered by archers and cav (while shielders are only slaughtered by cav) and then have an equal or lesser chance against shielders?

At least with a fastish crush through weapon (if they made it better vs shields, though worse vs weapon blocks) they'd have an advantage over one class. The only 'advantage' I have with my 2h over my 1h is I kill crap players faster (though my 2h risks getting an unlucky hit from them if I screw up a block, whereas my shielder is at risk of getting hit only if my heart fails IRL mid-duel). Speed in killing large numbers of crap players is not an advantage.


Sorry Magikarp; didn't mean to derail the thread. In a roundabout way I was trying to show that the main advantage a 2h has against a shielder with a huscarl (especially loomed) is a decent crush through weapon (either that, or they need lots of time, amazing manual blocking skills and a big axe).

Edit:

Old screen, i rarely do screens. I just did 3 kills in one round with 2h in cRPG.

IT"S CLEARLY OP THEN!!!1111

On a more serious note; were you duelling skilled shielders when you got those? Or did you gank a few peasants and decide you had the skillz?