Crushtrough - My take on a fix

[DarkFox]

The maul is lots slower in Native. As I've said before, I can spam a mauler in Native every time they go for an overhead. In cRPG, against someone who doesn't suck and didn't go derpaherpa-full-strength-build, it's not possible.

But you  have agi build,no?Means you have high athletics,and you have german great sword that have only 2.5 weight,means you can keep the distance and spam/feint maul to death.

[Xant]

But you  have agi build,no?Means you have high athletics,and you have german great sword that have only 2.5 weight,means you can keep the distance and spam/feint maul to death.

Well, sadly, things aren't balanced around me and my build...

But even then, no I can't. I always have balanced builds, either 18/21 or 21/18, and I can't do that. The maul user just has to face hug and block one hit, then overhead.

If you go for the best great maul build (21 agi, 18 str), don't use plate armor (slows you down, wpf reductions)... then I doubt any build/weapon can get a swing in before the overhead hits.

[Mattressi]

Crushtrough is a fun class to play, but it needs to be less accessable and powerful. It also needs better counters.

The same could be said of shielders: I see a lot of people going shielder nowadays and it has few counters. A dedicated shielder is impervious to arrows and bolts. They also have a massive advantage against 2h/polearm users; they don't have to manual (directional) block! This means that feinting is ridiculously easy, because they only need to think about the direction of their attack and don't need to worry about the direction of their opponents attack. With most shields they'll be as fast as a 2h/polearm user (usually faster; most shields except huscarl have close to 100 speed and the better 1h weapons have 97+ speed, while the better 2h have 92 speed) and don't really need to worry that they've got 20 less range - after all, how long does it take someone to close that 20 unit distance? It's barely enough for one well-timed swing, which is easily autoblocked.

Which brings me to my point: aside from throwing (well, sort of; with enough projectiles their shield breaks) and cav, shielders have only two other weaknesses; axes and crush through. An axe will take at least 4 or 5 swings to break a decent shield, which is usually played out as a swing while they're out of range and then the occasional lucky swing between their numerous, fast feints. Then, if you get that far, the shielder is now without their shield and are essentially a 2h (side sword has the same length of a katana, one less speed and similar damage) with full health, while you're down to whatever they've taken off already.
Crush through should force shielders to deshield (for fear of the crush through). As it is, crush through is only reliable with great maul vs shielders and only works against crap shielders. Any decent one can take out a maul user. An heirloomed bar mace works ok, but do we really have to retire just to have a chance against shielders?

I think the heirloomed +weight of crush through weapons should be removed. This will stop them being crap when unheirloomed and OP when heirloomed. Then, I think the formula for crush through should be altered; make it much less likely to crush through when someone blocks with a weapon, but much much more likely (with an unloomed bar mace) to crush through a shield. Either that, or simply make shields have as little HP as they did in native (where 2-3 hits with a heavy axe would break it).
The only problem with this is when a shielder puts their shield away when a crush through (slower, short length) weapon comes out, only to put it away as soon as a better weapon comes out. Oh well.

As it is, crush through seems about the only advantage to playing a 2h. Without it, 2h is outranged by cav, outranged (and outswung) by polearms, is shot up by ranged and is turtled to death by shielders (unless many 2h with axes gank a shielder, but I believe in balancing for 1v1).

[DarkFox]

I had 18str/21ag,160wph,had armor with 3 weight,mallet,and still,overhead spam didnt work,and I could crush heavy shield only if I holded my atack for 3 sec and had high bonus speed.I dont know what to think.I had a shielder 25 lvl 12str/18 agi 150wpf shield 8 weight,skilled guy with mallet having 18/18 build.He was trying to hug me,but when I was feinting like hell he went back because it was just unblockable.And so he died by feint spam.I had 18/21 2h great axe and some times great sword,and I never losed to maul face to face if I attacked them properly.
Mauls are very dangerous in attack,but its very hard to protect yourself.

[UrLukur]

The same could be said of shielders: I see a lot of people going shielder nowadays and it has few counters. A dedicated shielder is impervious to arrows and bolts. They also have a massive advantage against 2h/polearm users; they don't have to manual (directional) block! This means that feinting is ridiculously easy, because they only need to think about the direction of their attack and don't need to worry about the direction of their opponents attack. With most shields they'll be as fast as a 2h/polearm user (usually faster; most shields except huscarl have close to 100 speed and the better 1h weapons have 97+ speed, while the better 2h have 92 speed) and don't really need to worry that they've got 20 less range - after all, how long does it take someone to close that 20 unit distance? It's barely enough for one well-timed swing, which is easily autoblocked.

Which brings me to my point: aside from throwing (well, sort of; with enough projectiles their shield breaks) and cav, shielders have only two other weaknesses; axes and crush through. An axe will take at least 4 or 5 swings to break a decent shield, which is usually played out as a swing while they're out of range and then the occasional lucky swing between their numerous, fast feints. Then, if you get that far, the shielder is now without their shield and are essentially a 2h (side sword has the same length of a katana, one less speed and similar damage) with full health, while you're down to whatever they've taken off already.
Crush through should force shielders to deshield (for fear of the crush through). As it is, crush through is only reliable with great maul vs shielders and only works against crap shielders. Any decent one can take out a maul user. An heirloomed bar mace works ok, but do we really have to retire just to have a chance against shielders?

I think the heirloomed +weight of crush through weapons should be removed. This will stop them being crap when unheirloomed and OP when heirloomed. Then, I think the formula for crush through should be altered; make it much less likely to crush through when someone blocks with a weapon, but much much more likely (with an unloomed bar mace) to crush through a shield. Either that, or simply make shields have as little HP as they did in native (where 2-3 hits with a heavy axe would break it).
The only problem with this is when a shielder puts their shield away when a crush through (slower, short length) weapon comes out, only to put it away as soon as a better weapon comes out. Oh well.

As it is, crush through seems about the only advantage to playing a 2h. Without it, 2h is outranged by cav, outranged (and outswung) by polearms, is shot up by ranged and is turtled to death by shielders (unless many 2h with axes gank a shielder, but I believe in balancing for 1v1).

trololol. Unequip shield and fight like inferior 2h that wasted gold for shield and wasted skillpoints for it ? U mad bro ?

Besides, some shields already require skill to use, bucklers and cav shields are examples.

[Mattressi]

trololol. Unequip shield and fight like inferior 2h that wasted gold for shield and wasted skillpoints for it ? U mad bro ?

Besides, some shields already require skill to use, bucklers and cav shields are examples.

Buckler requires skill? Against ranged it isn't great, against melee it's the same as any other shield (though it does break quickly from an axe at least).

I can beat 2h and polearm users in a duel without a shield on my 1h alt as easily as I can with my 2h. The only way I'm limited without a shield is I don't do as well in big brawls (2h have the range to stay back, but a 1h without a shield can get killed easily in a big group fight).

If you think it's so ridiculous, how do you propose 2h/polearms have some kind of advantage over shielders? Everyone keeps saying it's 'rock paper scissors', but I've yet to see what advantage 2h users have against any class. They're marginally faster than a shielder, though not enough to mean anything and they have slightly longer range which can be countered easily by face hugging, they can get shot in the feet through a board shield by ranged (somehow; it's kinda ridiculous when I play my archer and shoot through the wood into someone's foot and kill them) and they don't have the range advantage vs cav. Which class is 2h meant to beat?

[UrLukur]

Buckler requires skill? Against ranged it isn't great, against melee it's the same as any other shield (though it does break quickly from an axe at least).

I can beat 2h and polearm users in a duel without a shield on my 1h alt as easily as I can with my 2h. The only way I'm limited without a shield is I don't do as well in big brawls (2h have the range to stay back, but a 1h without a shield can get killed easily in a big group fight).

If you think it's so ridiculous, how do you propose 2h/polearms have some kind of advantage over shielders? Everyone keeps saying it's 'rock paper scissors', but I've yet to see what advantage 2h users have against any class. They're marginally faster than a shielder, though not enough to mean anything and they have slightly longer range which can be countered easily by face hugging, they can get shot in the feet through a board shield by ranged (somehow; it's kinda ridiculous when I play my archer and shoot through the wood into someone's foot and kill them) and they don't have the range advantage vs cav. Which class is 2h meant to beat?

Well, bucklers with 5 shield skill require skill to use, it's quite easy to bypass it.

I can beat them too, still, dueling with worse stats (they have no wasted points in shields), worse damage and worse range and worse speed and less stun is surely disadvantage. IF you don't get how, i can't help you.

They have advantage in feinting speed, they are faster so breaking the rythm against them is harder to do, they deal more damage so they can turn into swing more, they stun. They have some chances against horses (unlike 1h). They are great for supporting in melee, and that is their role.

This game is not paper rock scissor. 2h is melee support, they have best dueling weapons, they have mauls, they have edge over shield users and in specific cases against pole users. 2h is meant to be melee, like poles and 1h+shield, they are not supposed to be melee counter. Jack of all trades.

[Mattressi]

I can beat them too, still, dueling with worse stats (they have no wasted points in shields), worse damage and worse range and worse speed and less stun is surely disadvantage. IF you don't get how, i can't help you.

I'm fully aware that they'd be at a minor disadvantage, but I don't get why they should therefore have a big advantage vs melee when they have their shield on.

They have advantage in feinting speed, they are faster so breaking the rythm against them is harder to do, they deal more damage so they can turn into swing more, they stun. They have some chances against horses (unlike 1h). They are great for supporting in melee, and that is their role.

1h have a huge advantage in feinting (as I said, they can feint all day and never have to worry about changing direction to block), they are almost as fast (often faster if vsing a higher tier sword), damage difference is negligible (at most it takes one extra swing to kill someone on my 1h compared to my 2h, unless they're heavily tin canned), stun only happens if the 1h blocks with their weapon (at least, I've never stunned nor been stunned with a shield).

This game is not paper rock scissor. 2h is melee support, they have best dueling weapons, they have mauls, they have edge over shield users and in specific cases against pole users. 2h is meant to be melee, like poles and 1h+shield, they are not supposed to be melee counter. Jack of all trades.

So 2h are the jack of all melee trades, master of none? Because they sure can't beat ranged (because of the shield nerf) and they barely stand a chance against cav (they have much chance as a 1h if they each have a pike, though). How can someone be the jack of all trades, but only melee 'trades' (even then their advantage over the other two melee 'classes' ius highly questionable at best)? And, by 'support', do you mean the 2h's role is to stand back and swing into a group fight?

[Chasab]

what are the cons of crush through weapons?

a little bit slower

What are the pros?

Crush through, unable to be blocked by anything
Normally higher base damage
Most cases the ability to also knockdown

There are not enough cons at the moment to outweigh all the gains.

[DarkFox]

what are the cons of crush through weapons?

a little bit slower

What are the pros?

Crush through, unable to be blocked by anything
Normally higher base damage
Most cases the ability to also knockdown

There are not enough cons at the moment to outweigh all the gains.

1)It has weight to stun enemy.
2)It has croushthrough.(It can be blocked if the enemy have no more then 6 or 7 PS and if you know how does damage system works.)
3)Good damage.
4)Knockdown.
Disadvantages:
1)Big weight makes you your movement slow,and movement is very important for melee battles.
2)Its unbalanced,means its hard to switch betwin attacks and blocks and makes feints useles.
3)A little bit slower?You call the most slow weapon in the game ''a little bit slower''?lol
4)Its very short.Shorter then 1h sword.

[Chasab]

Studded Warclub 92 base speed
Long Iron Mace 94 base speed
Bar Mace 92 base speed

Basically what im saying is they are not the slowest weapons in the game

Also they are not the shortest weapons in the game.

what do blades get? blades don't do anything extra special the swing a little faster? ok ill trade you a slight faster swing for a high chance of not being able to get blocked.

[DarkFox]

Studded Warclub 92 base speed
Long Iron Mace 94 base speed
Bar Mace 92 base speed

Warclub have very low weight.To crush peasant weapon.Iron mace and Bar Mace are going to be be nerfed.I am talking about really heavy weapon,such as mallet and great maul.
Blades have everything.Most of 2h swords are elite weapon,they have range,they have good damage,enough weight to stun 1h but still not too heavy,they are balanced,they are very fast and they have deadly thrust that can kill enemy with one strike.This is the reason why they are so expensive.

[Mattressi]

what do blades get? blades don't do anything extra special the swing a little faster? ok ill trade you a slight faster swing for a high chance of not being able to get blocked.

High chance of crush through is only when the bar mace (or similar) are heirloomed. I think the weight increase of looms should be removed, rather than crush through removed. As it is, I've never crushed through with the bar mace against an opponent using a weapon, but very occasionally (like, 1% chance) I will crush through a decent shield. I prefer swords though (since crush through doesn't work vs shields anyway), so I'm not exactly defending the bar mace.

[Magikarp]

Yup, heirlooms need to be looked at too, they shouldn't increase weight on these things.

And please, if you go full str you are slow as hell, just try it. Most people go athletics 6+ and 6+ weapon master, while you have either 1 or 0 of both. Anyone that lets you hit them is probably a noob.

[UrLukur]

I'm fully aware that they'd be at a minor disadvantage, but I don't get why they should therefore have a big advantage vs melee when they have their shield on.

It's major disadvantage. They don't really have so much advantage in melee, they more slow like turtles, they have limited attacks, sucky animations, not high damage, bounce a lot, have lowering shield time, have raising shield time, have to respond to attacks with smaller shield just as manual block, have less skill points than 2h/poles, less range, cost more. Overall, when shield is up, they are about on par.

1h have a huge advantage in feinting (as I said, they can feint all day and never have to worry about changing direction to block), they are almost as fast (often faster if vsing a higher tier sword), damage difference is negligible (at most it takes one extra swing to kill someone on my 1h compared to my 2h, unless they're heavily tin canned), stun only happens if the 1h blocks with their weapon (at least, I've never stunned nor been stunned with a shield).

1h when shield is on have disadvantage in feinting. When it's off, they don't have initiative to feint (range, range, range). Not really faster than even greatswords, due to multiple factors (stun), with light shields happens.

So 2h are the jack of all melee trades, master of none? Because they sure can't beat ranged (because of the shield nerf) and they barely stand a chance against cav (they have much chance as a 1h if they each have a pike, though). How can someone be the jack of all trades, but only melee 'trades' (even then their advantage over the other two melee 'classes' ius highly questionable at best)? And, by 'support', do you mean the 2h's role is to stand back and swing into a group fight?

Polearms also have to buy pike to counter cav. Shield is not only protection against ranged but also burden (sloooooooow, cant dodge well).

2h is great for teamwork, it's already great in melee. Just help your team, not expect to go solo.  2h is dominating the servers, it's surely not UP. More like OP.

Also, to put it bluntly, you have problem just with huscarl and side sword.