Poll

Do you follow tactics in cRPG?

Yes, I do whenever I can
51 (35.4%)
Yes, I often do, when the plan seems reasonable to me
57 (39.6%)
I would, but most plans seem bad to me
12 (8.3%)
I don't like to follow some people on the internet, who made them the boss?
10 (6.9%)
I don't like tactics, as it usually involves a lot of camping and it's boring
14 (9.7%)

Total Members Voted: 144

Author Topic: Do you miss tactics in cRPG?  (Read 4235 times)

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Offline Osiris

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Re: Do you miss tactics in cRPG?
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2011, 03:20:27 pm »
0
your ninjas.... you have hardly any armour ofc you get raped in a group
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Offline Teeth

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Re: Do you miss tactics in cRPG?
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2011, 03:25:09 pm »
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your ninjas.... you have hardly any armour ofc you get raped in a group
Exactly

Offline Dezilagel

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Re: Do you miss tactics in cRPG?
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2011, 04:40:56 pm »
0
Well, this is amusing.

Firstly, 1:

I, like many others, don't simply play c-rpg in order to max my win/loss ratio. I play it for fun, and while winning is an objective, it's not my main one.

Sure, I often blindly charge in to a group pf enemies, but that's because I like the challenge and find the prospect of facing multiple opponents quite thrilling.

Also, if I played in order to be as efficient as possible, then I wouldn't be playing a noshield melee guy hmm?

2:

Don't get me wrong, I like tactics, playing in an organized group can also be a lot of fun.

But complaining that the general populace doesn't do it is just silly when you have a VERY distinctive clan-system for doing just that.

Ever considered that the average c-rpg player doesn't want to go all serious into the game but rather just relax and have a bit of fun?

3:

Connecting this to some joke about the general increase in *stupidity* is even more silly, not only for the reasons outlined above, but also because of the nature of "stupidity".

Stupidity is a very malleable concept, what is stupid today may not be stupid tomorrow. What is stupid here may not be stupid elsewhere.

For example, speaking fluent English is very smart if you're an international businessman today, but uttering a single word of it in 14th-century France would be pure idiocy and might just get you killed.

Stupidity implies failure. Therefore smartness will always prevail.

What you consider stupid often is not, A lot of people confuse "intellectual" with "smart". What matters today may not fit your idea of what does, or what should.

For example:

You have two guys, one is a drunk that has spent his entire life fighting and being a hooligan who barely have the brainpower to tie his own shoes. The other guy is a well-known professor in math, with an IQ higher then his height in centimeters.

Both their lives then reach a turning point when they get into a fistfight - who's been the "smart" one? (Assuming they both want to get out of it unscathed)

In a similar way, in my opinion the "smart" c-rpg player is not he who constantly maximizes his multi by using as-efficient-as-possible teamwork, but rather him who can just enjoy the game for what it is, since that is the main objective imo.

If you want serious gaming, you have certain clans and strategus for that - not the pub servers. And that is not due to lack of people's ability to work together, but simply because they don't want to.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 04:42:03 pm by Dezilagel »
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Do you miss tactics in cRPG?
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2011, 05:02:07 pm »
-1
Well, this is amusing.

Firstly, 1:

I, like many others, don't simply play c-rpg in order to max my win/loss ratio. I play it for fun, and while winning is an objective, it's not my main one.

Considering that the amount of upkeep you can afford is determined by your average multiplier, thus the game and half of making your build is connected to the multiplier, and chadz removed the system where you get rewarded for the amount of kills of your team but simply by winning rounds, I would say the main goal is winning rounds.


Sure, I often blindly charge in to a group pf enemies, but that's because I like the challenge and find the prospect of facing multiple opponents quite thrilling.

Also, if I played in order to be as efficient as possible, then I wouldn't be playing a noshield melee guy hmm?

I wouldn't say infantry without shield was not efficient, usually it's them who have the best k/d.

2:

Don't get me wrong, I like tactics, playing in an organized group can also be a lot of fun.

But complaining that the general populace doesn't do it is just silly when you have a VERY distinctive clan-system for doing just that.

Ever considered that the average c-rpg player doesn't want to go all serious into the game but rather just relax and have a bit of fun?

This implies that realizing facts like being crowded doesn't help anyone except of the enemy, or that if you do something three times and you fail, you will most likely fail a fourth time, would be "work" and "tiresome" for the average player, as you said they want just relax and have fun.

I fear this is where we agree  :lol:  :wink:


3:

Connecting this to some joke about the general increase in *stupidity* is even more silly, not only for the reasons outlined above, but also because of the nature of "stupidity".

Stupidity is a very malleable concept, what is stupid today may not be stupid tomorrow. What is stupid here may not be stupid elsewhere.

For example, speaking fluent English is very smart if you're an international businessman today, but uttering a single word of it in 14th-century France would be pure idiocy and might just get you killed.

Stupidity implies failure. Therefore smartness will always prevail.

What you consider stupid often is not, A lot of people confuse "intellectual" with "smart". What matters today may not fit your idea of what does, or what should.

For example:

You have two guys, one is a drunk that has spent his entire life fighting and being a hooligan who barely have the brainpower to tie his own shoes. The other guy is a well-known professor in math, with an IQ higher then his height in centimeters.

Both their lives then reach a turning point when they get into a fistfight - who's been the "smart" one? (Assuming they both want to get out of it unscathed)

In a similar way, in my opinion the "smart" c-rpg player is not he who constantly maximizes his multi by using as-efficient-as-possible teamwork, but rather him who can just enjoy the game for what it is, since that is the main objective imo.

If you want serious gaming, you have certain clans and strategus for that - not the pub servers. And that is not due to lack of people's ability to work together, but simply because they don't want to.

This whole argumentation is flawed.

There is a common sense of what is stupid and what not, and even in history things shouldn't have changed much. Social structures and acceptable behaviour changed, but stupid things remained stupid. What the guys from Jackass do would have been considered as "stupid" in past times, it's considered stupid nowadays, and I am pretty confident that it will always be considered stupid.

Your example with the professor and the hooligan does not work. I could easily turn it to "Imagine there is a professor and a stone, and there is suddenly a nuclear explosion, because Kim Jong Sun went nuts and nuked the world. Who will survive it better? Who's "smarter" now, the rock or the professor?"

Even if the professor gets beaten up by the hooligan he is still the smarter one of both. You can't compare one's intelligence and education with his general "suitability" for certain situations. One has nothing to do with the other.

Transferred to the game I still stick to my opinion, that the greatest dueller will be taken down rather quickly by several (3+) enemies, if he charges alone, while a single peasant with a quarterstaff can knock out several top players by attacking them in their back while they are fighting, if he sticks to his teammates and manages to outnumber the enemy.

And even if the top players takes down more enemies in his lonely charge than the peasant while defending the ruins/tower/mill/whatever, I bet in the majority of all cases the top player would perform much better if he sticked to his teammates.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 05:03:24 pm by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline KaMiKaZe_JoE

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Re: Do you miss tactics in cRPG?
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2011, 05:12:46 pm »
0
Tactics are impossible until CAV IS NERFED
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Offline Polobow

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Re: Do you miss tactics in cRPG?
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2011, 05:47:28 pm »
0
This is the golden advice. I remember the glory days when Fallens did our "Fallen tactic shit" almost every round under command from our glorious general Ramses. Extremely fun stuff.

Fallen and his team won the big-clan 75v75 tournament because of that.

Offline Dezilagel

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Re: Do you miss tactics in cRPG?
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2011, 06:17:06 pm »
-1
Considering that the amount of upkeep you can afford is determined by your average multiplier, thus the game and half of making your build is connected to the multiplier, and chadz removed the system where you get rewarded for the amount of kills of your team but simply by winning rounds, I would say the main goal is winning rounds.

How can I argue with you then?

If the main goal for you is just winning, then all I can say is that you're probably in the wrong game.

C-rpg *gold*, *heirlooms* and *xp* are not rewards in themselves to me at least.

I wouldn't say infantry without shield was not efficient, usually it's them who have the best k/d.

Out of thin air hmm? (I'm pretty confident cav have the best K:D)

This implies that realizing facts like being crowded doesn't help anyone except of the enemy, or that if you do something three times and you fail, you will most likely fail a fourth time, would be "work" and "tiresome" for the average player, as you said they want just relax and have fun.

I fear this is where we agree  :lol:  :wink:

I don't understand a single thing of what you are trying to say here.

This whole argumentation is flawed.

Best topic sentence ever.

"No, it's not."

There is a common sense of what is stupid and what not, and even in history things shouldn't have changed much. Social structures and acceptable behaviour changed, but stupid things remained stupid. What the guys from Jackass do would have been considered as "stupid" in past times, it's considered stupid nowadays, and I am pretty confident that it will always be considered stupid.

This is a perfect example of just how malleable the concept of stupidity is, and thus of how wrong you are.

Doing what the Jackass guys do is in most cases "stupid" yes, but considering that they've made millions from it by broadcasting, is it really stupid? I'd say it's genius.

Your example with the professor and the hooligan does not work. I could easily turn it to "Imagine there is a professor and a stone, and there is suddenly a nuclear explosion, because Kim Jong Sun went nuts and nuked the world. Who will survive it better? Who's "smarter" now, the rock or the professor?"

You missed this part:

Quote
Both their lives then reach a turning point when they get into a fistfight - who's been the "smart" one? (Assuming they both want to get out of it unscathed)

If the stone "wants" to stay intact, then yeah the stone is smarter. Now that would just be a silly assumption, since the stone is not a thinking being, but it shows that your example is not equal to mine and thus fails to invalidate it.

Even if the professor gets beaten up by the hooligan he is still the smarter one of both. You can't compare one's intelligence and education with his general "suitability" for certain situations. One has nothing to do with the other.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You say that "intelligence and education" = being smart, and I strongly disagree with that. Doing what's smart is doing what's most beneficial (over a certain period of time), and what's most beneficial for preparing for a fistfight where you want to get out unscathed is definitively not studying math.

Transferred to the game I still stick to my opinion, that the greatest dueller will be taken down rather quickly by several (3+) enemies, if he charges alone, while a single peasant with a quarterstaff can knock out several top players by attacking them in their back while they are fighting, if he sticks to his teammates and manages to outnumber the enemy.

Yes, but this is once again assuming that the main objective is winning. You've still not disapproved my claim that it is not or defended your claim that it is.

And even if the top players takes down more enemies in his lonely charge than the peasant while defending the ruins/tower/mill/whatever, I bet in the majority of all cases the top player would perform much better if he sticked to his teammates.

Same thing here. Since when is "performance" in a battle the final goal of playing c-rpg?


If you want to debate this with me, on whatever level, please do. But THINK before you post. Unsupported slander is not going to convince anyone of your standpoint.
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Do you miss tactics in cRPG?
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2011, 07:30:21 pm »
0
Quote battle between me and Dezilagel, probably uninteresting for everyone else and derailing the topic anyway:

(click to show/hide)

« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 07:33:01 pm by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline [ptx]

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Re: Do you miss tactics in cRPG?
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2011, 07:35:54 pm »
0
"Yeah, well, thats just like your opinion, man."
(click to show/hide)

Offline Joker86

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Re: Do you miss tactics in cRPG?
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2011, 07:38:26 pm »
+1
"Yeah, well, thats just like your opinion, man."
(click to show/hide)

I have been tested at the age of about 14 or 15, I think, and for me it was between 135 and 145, at least.  :P

(Believe it or not, idc)

Although I say at this point those 5 points don't change anything any more. Not in real life situations. Those test can even vary about 15 points or more, depending on your form of the day. (And how often you use to make such tests)
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 07:39:46 pm by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline B3RS3RK

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Re: Do you miss tactics in cRPG?
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2011, 07:42:48 pm »
-1
You know, the higher the IQ the smaller the dick.


Also, IQ hasnt got much to do with overall Intelligence....If I got an IQ of 100 and have 2 College degrees Im more intelligent than the guy with IQ 150 who broke off High school living in the gutter now smoking crack all day.
Maybe it woud be better for me to find out where you life and kill you when you are satch a Soziopath. You have enough now.
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Offline Teeth

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Re: Do you miss tactics in cRPG?
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2011, 07:46:56 pm »
+1
You know, the higher the IQ the smaller the dick.


Also, IQ hasnt got much to do with overall Intelligence....If I got an IQ of 100 and have 2 College degrees Im more intelligent than the guy with IQ 150 who broke off High school living in the gutter now smoking crack all day.
no

Offline [ptx]

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Re: Do you miss tactics in cRPG?
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2011, 07:50:36 pm »
0
Here is how i see it. Not everyone shares YOUR IDEA of fun as in constantly trying to camp or move together or whatever your idea of tactics is.
I myself sometimes, when i have good teammates, do things, other than just charging at the enemy, often with great success (as my main has been a pikeman since times long gone, i understand teamwork and "tactics" quite well, i'd say), but other times i just feel like charging into a mass of enemies and spam. Doesn't make me a moron, just a bored guy looking for a DIFFERENT kind of fun.

You have been writing supah-long posts about "tactics in crpg battle" for a really long time now. It just ain't gonna happen. And no, it is not because "people are too stupid", it is because this is a casual GAME.

You know, the higher the IQ the smaller the dick.


Also, IQ hasnt got much to do with overall Intelligence....If I got an IQ of 100 and have 2 College degrees Im more intelligent than the guy with IQ 150 who broke off High school living in the gutter now smoking crack all day.
IQ mostly just stands for logical thinking (reasoning), not other things, such as your ability to push yourself forward, for example.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 07:56:59 pm by [ptx] »

Offline Teeth

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Re: Do you miss tactics in cRPG?
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2011, 07:58:49 pm »
+1
Same thing here. Since when is "performance" in a battle the final goal of playing c-rpg?
Think this is my final goal for cRPG. I keep playing it, because there is still room to improve. I duel a lot, partly because it is fun, partly because I want to be able to shine in battle.

And that is not due to lack of people's ability to work together, but simply because they don't want to.
Not too sure of this. I think this game naturally attracts a bit older, more serious people than your average fps. I think a lot of these people like to use teamwork, I've seen immensely positive reaction to people giving orders or moving around with flag. They get followed, I have tried some leading myself too, wasn't too bad. Ofcourse it only works to the extend of 'go right' or 'camp here. But still, the fact that people actually listen to you and are willing to follow you, shows the desire for teamwork in this community.

If this desire for teamwork could be met with a system that makes commanding somewhat possible, good things could happen in this game. The combat system is still very focused on individualism, with the enormous risk of teamdamaging, thanks again to the devs for implementing the earlier active attacks.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 08:07:00 pm by SgtTeeh »

Offline ArchonAlarion

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Re: Do you miss tactics in cRPG?
« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2011, 08:03:59 pm »
0
You can't force tactics. If the game is hard enough for certain play styles, they will gradually learn to work together or at least perform particular tasks during the battle.

Put more open plains and cav-friendly maps into rotation and you will see more infantry tactics.

Tactics are difficult without team speak and formal chains of command.