Stamina

[Chris_P_Bacon]

Add a stamina bar which decreases with each swing but no negative effects occur if it is empty. This way you can know that you should be dead but you don't have to deal with the consequences.

[Ninja_Khorin]

It's interesting how people always suggest to use skill to counter a game mechanic that doesn't require any: "Yeah, spam is fine, just get better noobs" ™.

I am so tired of this community.

If you're fighting a spammer and lose, then you're skills are equal or worse than his. If you can't beat him that means that your footwork is significantly worse than his or you can't block, and if you can't block, then you by definition are a spammer. sorry if this sounded a little offensive. Tired and last exams are tomorrow and I'm sitting here studying.

Basically this:

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You people seem to be at the "ban post" stage, really.

Also, adding a stamina bar that decreases a set amount every swing regardless of spec and weapon would make agility builds largely unplayable. Because builds built on speed do less damage, i.e. you have to hit the enemy more, i.e. you do less damage and suffer more stamina consequences than other specs. Balancing this would require that agi builds get more stamina or take less stamina per swing while strength build are the opposite. This way both builds can deal equally much damage before the stamina runs out. So essentially this only nerfes anyone that fights against multiple opponents.

I'm just pointing out that this suggestion is here to nerf a specific build. Mainly agi it seems. Because OP seems to complain about being outspammed by long reach weapons with agi builds, other guy wants to nerf one handers that are too fast. OP is probably getting spammed because of polearm stun or weapon stun.

[Maximus101]

NOO. If you wanna deal with spammers get more agi. Adding this basically gives an advantage to the agi whores, as the amount of stamina they get will be more than other ppl. Also, this would totally ruin duels and stuff.

[JihadistMexican]

If you can't block a spammer then your "bad."  Saul and Ninja have given arguments that how you can defend against spammers with the right skill.  You (and I) call them spammers cause we cant block for shit. Saul is a great (my old friend) player who can block anything and has no problem if they spam.  Get better and they wont be spammers.

EDIT: and you figured out your tired of this community lol.

[zagibu]

If you're fighting a spammer and lose, then you're skills are equal or worse than his. If you can't beat him that means that your footwork is significantly worse than his or you can't block, and if you can't block, then you by definition are a spammer. sorry if this sounded a little offensive. Tired and last exams are tomorrow and I'm sitting here studying.

Also, adding a stamina bar that decreases a set amount every swing regardless of spec and weapon would make agility builds largely unplayable. Because builds built on speed do less damage, i.e. you have to hit the enemy more, i.e. you do less damage and suffer more stamina consequences than other specs. Balancing this would require that agi builds get more stamina or take less stamina per swing while strength build are the opposite. This way both builds can deal equally much damage before the stamina runs out. So essentially this only nerfes anyone that fights against multiple opponents.

I'm just pointing out that this suggestion is here to nerf a specific build. Mainly agi it seems. Because OP seems to complain about being outspammed by long reach weapons with agi builds, other guy wants to nerf one handers that are too fast. OP is probably getting spammed because of polearm stun or weapon stun.

I only started to lose against spammers when the hiltslashing bullshit began. And I don't think Ninjas talking about footwork should be taken seriously. High agi chars already have the advantage in duels, they can circle low agi chars by moving to the side and slashing the other direction (forcing the opponent to turn to the other side a bit first, to block the hit), then hit their unprotected side. This is a valid move, as it takes skill to do so. What doesn't take skill is to swing left and right continuously like a moron. Unfortunately, this is also the best move against low agi chars, because the slashes will connect earlier than the victim's backswings, because of HILTDERP.

Even if we take hiltslash out, spam is a problem, because a dude who can't block at all can still rise to top ten in scoreboard by spamming a long 2h/pole.

What's making hiltslash worse is the armor "rebalance" by Paul that reduced glancing. Now it's possible to start a swing facing 150° away from your full plated opponent and still hurt him. Then follow it up with two hiltslashes, and the knight is dead.

Anyway, to get back on topic, agi chars already have better footwork and swing speed, with stamina patch (str/weapon weight), they would be able to swing as many times as str chars before running out of stamina. The only difference would be that everyone would have to block a few hits after having attacked for a while, to get the stamina back. People fighting multiple opponents have to block inbetween, anyway, so this situation wouldn't even change at all.

And duels would actually be MORE interesting, because the stamina running out would form some kind of alternating advantage.

Also, thanks for telling me to get better. It's like the most original answer I've ever heard. I might not be as good as Khorin, but I can certainly block regular spammers. This doesn't mean that spam is fine, though. Imagine arrows did 10x as much damage as now. The "solution" to this would be to use a shield. Just because there exists some kind of "solution" doesn't mean it's fine.

[Vodner]

What doesn't take skill is to swing left and right continuously like a moron. Unfortunately, this is also the best move against low agi chars, because the slashes will connect earlier than the victim's backswings, because of HILTDERP.

What does take skill is starting a hiltslash, watching your opponent, and cancelling or chambering if you see him execute the proper counter.

This is like the people who complain about throws and zoning in Street Fighter.

The only difference would be that everyone would have to block a few hits after having attacked for a while, to get the stamina back.

Again, this only benefits players with poor footwork. If a player with poor footwork faces off against an opponent with great footwork, then the first player shouldn't get a chance to swing.

The ability to double-left swing on one-handers, hiltslash on 2h, and double-right swing (or right swing then thrust) on polearms raises the skill ceiling of the game. It adds extra elements that you have to watch out for as a player, and it gives you more tools to use against opponents. It keeps fights from devolving into dull 'block attack block' fests, which can easily last over a minute (blocking is fairly easy, and most players can block fairly consistently now - even non-thrust chambers are pretty easy to block most of the time).

If I die to a hiltslash (or far more commonly, a double left swing on a 1h), the only person I'm mad at is myself - because I screwed up. It's no different than when I die from missing my block, by getting my thrust chambered, or by having my opponent momentarily step out of range of my weapon.

[MrShine]

- agility whoring doesn't make you better at spamming (as Vodner and Khorin already mentioned and frankly I'd take their word for it over yours)
- (as was also mentioned) bad positioning or hesitation is what allows spam to be successful.
- stamina is a bad idea. I mean in general it's an ok idea, but it would fundamentally alter the combat of this game.  I like this game's combat as it is.

I get caught every now and then by a spammer because I tend to hold a lot and I fail at responding quickly enough.  However once I know that someone is a spammer I can very easily counter their strategy.

[Final_Boss]

I'd really love to see this implemented, it would add a whole new and refreshing dynamic to combat and it's something warband should have had hard coded.

I don't really buy the whole "skill stops spam" theory. Spam stops spam.

Long duels are between two players who can have the most spasms with the mouse and keyboard, not between two 'battle hardened' players.

With stamina, you'll still need "skill" to survive but you'll also have to watch your avatar's fatigue levels. It's kind of ridiculous watching two l33t generation 10000 players parry for 3 min, one wielding a stick.

[Vodner]

I don't really buy the whole "skill stops spam" theory. Spam stops spam.

Really? Please try to spam BigSandwich to death in duel (or Phyrex if you're an EU player). Please report back. I'm eager to hear how this works out for you. If melee combat doesn't involve skill, then you should be able to easily win half of your fights.

[zagibu]

What does take skill is starting a hiltslash, watching your opponent, and cancelling or chambering if you see him execute the proper counter.

There is no counter. The only thing a low agi char can do is block, and this doesn't require the hiltslasher to react at all, he can just continue. I wouldn't have a problem with hiltslash, if it was actually difficult to pull off. But it isn't. Which kind of negates your argument that it "raises the skill ceiling".

[Vodner]

There is no counter. The only thing a low agi char can do is block, and this doesn't require the hiltslasher to react at all, he can just continue.

Strafe away from the swing, and start your swing close to him. If you're low-ath, that means you're high-powerstrike, and can get away with starting your swing closer than usual without glancing.

[zagibu]

Strafe away from the swing, and start your swing close to him. If you're low-ath, that means you're high-powerstrike, and can get away with starting your swing closer than usual without glancing.

Did you just suggest to counter hiltslash with hiltslash?

[Vodner]

Did you just suggest to counter hiltslash with hiltslash?

Considering you're just swinging a single time (and that the counter works for 1h, 2h, and polearms, whereas hiltslash is a 2h only thing), then no.

I've played the following builds:
27/12 2h
27/12 polearm
18/21 2h
18/21 polearm
18/21 1h
24/15 1h

With all of these builds, I was able to counter castors. If you can't, you're doing something wrong.

[Xant]

Basically, Vodner and Khorin have already said everything. The counter to spam is to block once and then attack continuously until one of your attack gets blocked. Usually you only need to block once against spammers.

There is no counter. The only thing a low agi char can do is block, and this doesn't require the hiltslasher to react at all, he can just continue. I wouldn't have a problem with hiltslash, if it was actually difficult to pull off. But it isn't. Which kind of negates your argument that it "raises the skill ceiling".

Like Vodner said, the counter is proper footwork. Failing that, you just block twice in a row, it's very easy to see when someone's gonna hiltslash. And yes, proper hiltslash is pretty difficult to pull off. My problem with hiltslashing is people who think they can do it but can't and I get hit because I overestimated them and held/feinted... but yeaaah, that's just my fault. Hiltslashing is about as hard to pull off properly as it is to counter it.

BTW Vodner: Which 1h build did you like the most?

[Vodner]

BTW Vodner: Which 1h build did you like the most?

I personally liked the 18/21 one the most, despite the rage-inducing tendency for my sword to glance on heavy armor if I was even a little off with my footwork.