Good ways to die and Lame ways to kill. Trying to measure "Fun".

[B3RS3RK]

I find Killing Cav as Infantry the best because It somewhat feels like you killed 2 instead of just one(The horse).

[SchokoSchaf]

Wait? You people get satisfaction out of this game? 

[B3RS3RK]

For each hundred hours played 1 hour satisfaction.

[Thomek]

This is where you're wrong. They don't care if the community screams for something, they'll do whatever they want, which isn't always for the best cause they don't play their own game. At best you can get a sarcastic comment from Paul, which makes me have so much respect for the dev team.

Nah.. the devs are soft on the inside like most of you.. But this is internet and they got to keep up appearances.

[Grumbs]

As the statistics fasader provided the other day show, more than 70% of all kills are made by melee classes.
I believe that all the whining against archery stems from the fact that we see far more 2h/polearmers who wants to be able to run around without thinking, staying cover and play smart.

Personally I am not a great fan of ladders though. Might be good to see them go away.

I think this only tells part of the story. You don't have to get the killing blow or hit for you to have had a big influence on the fight. An archer will have to hit at least twice to kill usually, most often it takes several hits. Each one will put the player in a bad situation in melee where he will be more likely to be finished off due to lower HP and being stunned by an infantryman.

If you have 5 bad archers one of them will hit something while standing in safety on a building, it only takes 1 hit to screw someone up in melee or put him at a disadvantage. 1 good archer and he will wreck a team, like Camperus or Jambi (?), they can play melee as good as a pure infantryman so they also get melee kills often

Remember why people play M&B. Its famous for its melee combat. So most people will want to play melee therefore most kills should should be from melee anyway. Those statistics lump cav kills with melee too right?

Ranged and Cav server a purpose though for sure. They add to the tactical way you approach situations. It makes it a bit less "rushy", you have to think about your positioning and whether assaulting areas is a good idea. But you can have that without 10 Legosas' on roofs or spamming shots into melee. Just needs a higher skill floor and maybe lower damage. If you had to score a headshot that would set the bar way higher for archers for eg. You would not mind if someone managed a headshot, but standing spamming easy shots with piercing damage from safety, with the stun is kinda OTT. I know there is skill of course, but you aren't under pressure to perform, and can take several tries over and over to get it right. If you make 1 mistake in melee you can die because its real PVP

[Thomek]

As for actual solutions, not just whining

My position is that ladders in battle has to be limited. Perhaps 3 or even 4 slots for all ladders in battle only, perhaps removal in battle.

That will bring the ranged down on the floor, and the consequence would be a gift to cav. Therefore cav would have to be nerfed again..

A better solution would be a total reworking of how cav works. Long time ago I proposed that cav, and perhaps the cav-infantry symbiosis should be drastically changed. I would make them heavier, more solid, buff charge damage, keep the speed, but nerf maneuver hard. Perhaps the stalling of horses should be removed even by pikes. (Or at least the heavier ones) And in stead introduce deployable pikes.

I would want to soft-force cav to cooperate with each other. Making it so that a single cav is not as powerful, but 2-3 or more together could make devastating charges in favourable terrain.

That way, cav would have to cooperate to have success, but so would infantry. The deployable pikes could be 0 slot but heavy as hell, and stop and damage any cav running into them. Another change would be nerfing the damage of lances from low speed and standstill, but multiplying it further if the cav is riding at high speed.

Guess it would take some coding.. but would be awesome.

Thing about such a change, is that it wouldn't work if it was done in small incremements. It would have to be designed from the start.

Anyway.. I'm derailing my own thread here..

[Paul]

The reason why ranged is on roofs is ladders. I'm for removing them from battle, chadz is not. He wins. And yes, I have fun dying to arrows because I'm Native-hardened and I know that it is usually my fault if I die to ranged. I remember a Native battle training with my clan where I was circling as a horseman about 50m or more away from enemy archers. I was speaking on TS, forgot to do the dodge movement for a sec and got an arrow to the face. I am to blame and gratz to the skilled archer, who had btw like tenfold the powerlevel of CRPG archers now.

Of course this is perceived differently by many melee-centristic cRPG players who think of taking an arrow to the knee as being highly unfair, injust and certainly not their own fault. Getting told to buy a shield is racism while hatin archers for being archers is fine.

Some time ago if someone whined about cav and ranged he was told to toughen up and adapt. But now, even after ranged and horsemen continuesly lost power over the course of crpg development, melee peps whine more and worse than ever. I don't get it.

And no, if I play battle I don't think there is too much ranged or cav. Most of my chars are inf. I don't like roof camping and turn&run archers and I suggested solutions for that. I'm also aware that cav mostly lives of backstabbing, but I haven't seen a good solution suggestion for that yet. Imo mostly the inf is to blame because of the lack of awareness. Actually making cav stronger in 1on1 against an aware oponent is the only I see, but most of 'em dirty-boots would hate that. I suggested a spawn delay for cav to at least lessen spawn and late spawner rape. I also suggested a 50% damage reduction for horses against arrows/bolts to encourage cav to go for ranged.

But I will oppose all attemps of turning cRPG into the melee only perversity some people seem to dream of.

[Dezilagel]

I for one always enjoy a good duel, be it against one or several people.

I also enjoy fighting in small melee scrims and against "non-my old friendgy" cav. (i.e cav that actually tries to go for it and not just scurries away at the first tiny hint of awareness to go backstab peasants) One time I met a cav that tried to lance me from behind and when that failed stopped, dismounted and gave me a good duel, that was really cool!

Archers are for the most part, well, boring. Boring to get shot by, boring to run after for minutes, and boring to kill since there's usually no skill involved as you just backstab them. That is not to say that there aren't good archers that I respect, Inhumane for example is excellent and fun, both as a teammate and as an opponent.

X-bows I find more tolerable, since they put out less total damage and cannot kite although some of them also run which is weird.


Now there are some mechanics that I think are bullshit (kiting, roofcamping, CT, archersdoingfucking100piercedamage etc.), but ignoring that there are some ways of dying that are "extra-lame":

1. Friendly arrow in melee fight.

This is my top annoyance since it happens so often, and the archers (well, and xbowmen and throwers, but they're less common) seem to never learn. DON'T STUPIDLY FIRE INTO MELEE! Getting a friendly arrow in the back is not only very frustrating but also devastating to a melee player b/c of damage and the stagger. Most of the time when they stagger you to death, they don't even apologize as well. "Fucking bullshit"

2. Friendly cav in melee fight.

Some cav tk:s are understandable, but a lot of them are just stupid. Like today I managed to dehorse a guy who carried nothing but a heavy lance. Moving in for the kil.... Couched by friendly. It's a bit the same as with archers, cav teamhits are more devastating than melee ones. Knockdown is a bitch, couch is almost always insta-death and well speed bonus tends to cause "fun" things to happen.

3. Rage teamhits.

This is not as common as the other ones but these "eye for an eye" guys who slash you back if you accidentally hit them really need to lay it off.


That said, I'd like to see cav with more 1v1 and head-on power but less backstab mechanics, horses with more ability to survive ranged, more shield survivability vs arrows, less runners and no ladders. Oh, and no polestagger.

[Grumbs]

I don't think anyone suggested removing archers or gimping them into uselessness, Paul. Dodging is a fair point, but that can only go so far - you're still just seeing if the archer will miss. You can't force him miss if he's good, and if theres more than 1 the chance of something hitting gets to the point where you will get hit no matter what.

People use shields, but you can't have it out all the time and its only got limited area of effect. If an archer doesn't want to be caught he won't be since he wears lighter gear and has high athletics. Or is hiding on a roof in the first place ofc.

You can't expect people to simply hide all game. You have to make a push at some point, especially on uncoordinated pubs. I don't think melee fights should be decided too much based on people not even having to risk themselves in combat

I regularly see even the best melee players getting stomped by repeated bow hits and I just feel bad for them, especially when its just after an epic fight with another good melee player. Its just too easy to play archer/crossbowman and too safe

[Teeth]

I'm for removing them from battle, chadz is not.

Why? Donkeylord, please explain!

who had btw like tenfold the powerlevel of CRPG archers now.

Thats the reason why I am here. Native threw away the gem of a combat system they created, by making ranged so powerful that actually using this combat system was neigh impossible. Just can't understand that. cRPG made shieldless infantry playable. Other things made me stay, but thats the main reason I came to this mod.

Getting told to buy a shield is racism while hatin archers for being archers is fine.

Thats cause buying a shield barely helps anything. 80% of my time in battle is spent either in combat or dangerously close to combat. I can't have my shield in my hands during that time, cause I have to fight.

The other 20% of the time ranged doesn't trouble me much, I just dodge with my mouse.

Shield is useless when archers are spread out and shooting from different angles (from different roofs) Catching archers with my shield out slows me down, so not much use for it there either.

I think the few times I've tried a 2h and a shield I died more times due to getting caught in melee with my shield out than that the shield saved me.

Paul you seem to have the right ideas for how to fix ranged. Now just drug chadz or something.

[Zerobot1]

Just rename every thread title to "Debate about archers and ladders".

[Teeth]

Just rename every thread title to "Debate about archers and ladders".

There is a reason that always happens. It is the most urgent problem in cRPG, and one of the easiest to fix. Seems like most of the devs are on board. Now we just need to convince chadz.

Get your torches and pitchforks!

[Draggon]

You forgot to put "Lamest Death: FRIENDLY Archer kills Infantry" and "Lamest Death: FRIENDLY Cav kills Infantry." 

[Grumbs]

There is a reason that always happens. It is the most urgent problem in cRPG, and one of the easiest to fix. Seems like most of the devs are on board. Now we just need to convince chadz.

Get your torches and pitchforks!

How about an ingame protest? STF archer/crossbowmen them into submission. Could you do that with infantry? Doubt it. If the server is full of ranged they will do something

[Thomek]

Ok what you say makes overall sense Paul.

The awareness argument is partly invalid though, as the best players fall for the washing machine that is cav in numbers (from inf pov) Sooner or later they will get you, and If they don't they are just about to ride past 40 of your teammates in the next 8 seconds. There is always a chance to catch someone unaware or let's call it "busy with something else", and sooner or later it will be you. BAM you are dead.  (Not to say that many does need more awareness.. But cut them some slack, not everyone had the best day, the best ping, had an archer duel then, maybe they are tired from work, just retarded or whatnot. I do believe most players reach an unprecedented personal MAX when it comes to awareness after a month of cRPG.)

Tell chadz that I told him to limit ladders in battle. Let them take 3 slots, then no one can carry 2, and since (almost) no one uses just a 1h it will force cooperation. Overall only real teamplayers will use it, and it will be much less common than now. (More like a breath of fresh air, a moment of relaxation, and a break from the constant paranoia the heavy weed smoking archers would normally experience when not on a roof)

Otherwise I understand chadz argument. Ladders are a cool element, makes stuff creative, makes us use the environment etc..

The "Thoughen up you pussies" is just a retarded argument.. OK some people need to hear it, but generally it's just retarded when trying to share ideas about the game.

Anyway.. What I understand, but also what I think was a mistake, was to remove the Pike in your Pocket mechanism we had before. It was always a fun game between cav and infantry, whether they had a long one in their pants. Did the cav spot it? I just loved to pull out my bamboo and stick it in the horses face..  Cav was much more powerful then, but so were our counters!

I don't think I want those unrealistic spears back, but that means we need an alternative ways to stop cav, and then to once again buff cav.. Or just rethink the whole thing.