Author Topic: Massive multiplayer strategy games and their metagame. Can something be done?  (Read 14686 times)

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Offline Xant

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+1
Since the OP mentioned Tribal Wars... in Travian one player, if good enough, could easily keep a big carebear alliance down. Mainly because the best way to grow in that game is aggressive raiding and stealing everyone else's work. In Strategus you can only ever get away with raiding one caravan, then you'll get crushed because of how the system works. The problems in Strat, IMO, are that 1) one person can carry a LOT of goods so you can basically just send one extremely well armed caravan out 2) the whole 12 hour lockdown thing. You attack someone, chances are there will be someone waiting on top of you before you can move again.

Bigger map will help with 2) I'm sure, harder to keep the whole area covered.. or maybe not, depends on how the economy will work.
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Offline SchokoSchaf

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Right now strategus really shows very little incentive for small clans and clanless people and the "epic battles"-story seems to work less than simple organized clan battles. Sure it's hard to keep the balance and a big clan should have certain favors and implementing new stuff is an ass load of work.

I have really no idea how much work coding stuff is, but I'd be willing to work out some gameplay ideas and concepts. Just as long as someone would actually check it out to see if it would be possible to implement it.
But as it is now with the suggestion forum and the shear uncountable number of unconnected new propositions, I will not spend my time thinking for nothing and just be happy playing basic crpg when I want to.
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Offline RandomDude

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+2
I like idea of nameless defenders for AI. Just because a clan attacks a village who you want to be friendly with doesn't mean they should win because they have 2-4 times as many players as the defenders.

Bigger map? Nothing to stop smaller clans being crushed (if they dont get outside help) but that will always be a part of the game.

Whether there's 2 big sides or not, i think a lot of people will view a clan as either a friend or potential enemy.

Offline Gnjus

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I don't think that that's that much of a problem.

That.  :!:
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Offline mandible/splinteryourjaw

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I think the real problem here is that the community is small and people don't want to upset their internet friends.  This leads to these large alliances, and everybody wanting to be friends rather than play the game.  There seems to be a real problem separating friendship from gameplay.  The you attacked me now we are no longer friends and I'm going to join a huge, as you say, "carebear" alliance and destroy you, as well as troll you to destroy your rep on the boards mentality kills what could be a great game.  Can you imagine playing monopoly and before the game starts everybody lays claim to certain properties.  So you roll in hopes of landing somewhere, on something not "claimed."  What fun is it when you already know the outcome.

Cooties I understand why you want to avoid PvE.  I agree that a full scale PvE strategus may lead to other things, and I'm not sure there are enough players to support it anyway (w/o the AI eventually dominating.)  What I suggest are random AI actions that cause conflict between these huge alliances and the friend mentality.  By a roll of the dice force "carebear" members to attack each other or risk losing something.  Maybe make these actions only happen to fief owners or those with clan tags, to avoid the full PvE effect.  chadz you must make people understand that this is a war game, not a family reunion. 

The length of time it takes to gather resources and travel also plays on one's psyche.  I really want to battle, but I have to spend a month gathering resources for a 15 minute battle and then do it all over again.  No wonder people get ticked when attacked out of turn...there goes a month's worth of effort. 

Also, don't you dare get caught having fun by playing in a battle.  If you do, you are instantly labeled an enemy by the other team and forever at risk of the "carebears" polishing you off.  To everybody I ever merc'ed against I can assure you it WAS NOT PERSONAL.  I was just trying to have fun.  Because of all the griefing I don't even bother to sign up half the time now.  In my case it has nothing to do with the xp or gold I'm owed, my non-participation is strictly based on the griefing or threat of.   I am neutral and non-clan affiliated and still feel this way.  Attacks should be a part of gameplay, not retribution for a snide remark, a players nationality, trolling on the forum, etc.  The goal should be to own the entire map.  Now with the fief owners getting crpg benefits, the "carebear" mentality has become, "why not run off everybody we don't like and then live peacefully beside each other collecting our welfare."

This is a game meant to be played on the battlefield, but there are far more battles going on in the forums than in Strat.  I think ATS, Wataga, KOJ, Leikers, and others have it right.  Nothing personal, just fight.  They are the ones who need to receive the fief-owner benefits, since they are keeping the game unpredictable and thus alive.

By the way the re-inforce thing is useless.  Rules are as attacker, I can't be reinforced after 2 hours.  Although if I can have a re-inforcement army standing beside the battle within 24 hours to attack as soon as the battle is over, haven't I, in effect, been re-inforced.  Ex. ropynol, I think, attacked a DRZ caravan and won a lot of goods.  He immediatly lost these goods because while the battle was locked down a large DRZ force was able to muster itself and travel a great distance to stand beside him and await the outcome.  They then attacked and destroyed him.  This in effect was re-inforcement.  A cool down period is needed.

I would like to see horses have an effect on the quick march and exhaustion period...i.e. longer quick marches or shorter cool-downs.

tl:dr  strategus is a family reunion in its current state, hybrid PvE may be needed, reinforcement is useless, I think horses are more powerful than man

Offline Lepintoi

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+2
Factions should fight each other not vs AI, I believe this is the main idea of war game. Atm there are no reasons to fight each other except forum insults. That's the main problem of current strat.

Why are you not attacking anyone? Everyone around you feels safe enough to send all its troops towards us, with a DRZ threat in their backs the map would have been much more balanced and fun and actual strategy would have been necessary instead of just feeding troops into HRE lands :p...

Offline Tomas_of_Miles

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An idea which may be considered shite but anyways: Larger map, AI players for AI fiefs, and only local mercenaries.

So a larger map as in more fiefs, "local" mercenaries as in only people within certain distances to fiefs can sign up to battles, and AI players for AI fiefs to stop the initial game being too easy. Discuss?
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Offline Keshian

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I agree with Ganner. Need a mechanic that makes people want to defend the villages. Half the problem is no pay or reward but the bigger problem is diplomacy. If you see the same people signing against you every time boom reason for hostile relations. If the people fighting are nameless villagers you can speculate based on play style who you are fighting but can never really be sure.

If the map is 4 times bigger you will have to figure out a way to make people move faster with or without goods/crates. The rates now are insanely slow. Add more area to cover and I think you will bore the active people to death. Open up the trade radius a bit as well.

Yeah, 2-3 weeks per trade caravan now would become 6-7 weeks on the new map.


Alos, chadz, this is the best news for strategus I 've ever heard, much bigger map yeahhhhh!!

Also, the whole anonymous neutral fief mercs is great idea, will need more active admins to check rosters and make sure clanmates not signing up on other side and intentionally wasting equipment or dying, but still great idea.

Also, a big thing too is that 24 hour window allows every caravan that gets attacked, even if it loses, to be attacked immediately afterwards and have the goods regained.  This hurt banditry a  lot against any large faction, especially large factions with carebear alliances along their entire trade routes across the entire map.  Cooldown before being attacked after a battle would be useful (3-4 hours so can enter fief).
« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 06:36:15 pm by Keshian »
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Offline serr

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Quote
Yeah, 2-3 weeks per trade caravan now would become 6-7 weeks on the new map.
Then make it pointless to send caravans furher than half of map.

Quote
Also, the whole anonymous neutral fief mercs is great idea, will need more active admins to check rosters adn cmake sure clanmates not signing up on other side adn intentionally wasting equipment or dying, but still great idea.
No. At first, since most of admins are members of clans, they should not see real names of defenders, so it is task only for developers. At second, they don't have to be online, they can check roster after battle and ban someone if there will be exploiters.

Offline chadz

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+2
There is already a 1h cooldown after winning a fight (you can't be attacked during that time). But I feel it's not going far enough. I would actually like to implement a raiding option for hero vs hero, and if you win as attacker, you get teleported free of cost. The problem I foresee is that the amount of exploit possible with that is just horrible.

Offline Xant

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Maybe a considerable speed bonus after you win a fight, in addition to the 1 hour cooldown? Then to catch the bandits you'd need to be a lot faster yourself or actually get some people with you to surround the area.
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Offline Zaharist

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Why are you not attacking anyone? Everyone around you feels safe enough to send all its troops towards us, with a DRZ threat in their backs the map would have been much more balanced and fun and actual strategy would have been necessary instead of just feeding troops into HRE lands :p...
You'd better ask Vovka or Nebun, cause I am not involved in faction management since the middle of first strat.
I can't say I agree with their passive gamestyle.

But in general at the moment there is no sense in attacking anyone. Gameplay doesn't force us to attack other faction.
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Offline Elmokki

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Crpg itself and definitely a big part of the battle related strategus stuff is in the M&B module system Python. Strategus web interface is javascript and php. Is the whole Strategus running on php though or is there something else behind it?

No real reason to ask, I'm just interested.

Offline Tomas

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+2
Some random comments, suggestions based on what has been said before

1)  Trade bonus should stop increasing altogether after only a moderate distance (say 50km).  This will remove the more controlled land = more money mechanism from Strat which is making the carebear alliances so sucessful.

2)  Population loyalty.   Loyalty when you capture a fief = 20% and decreases by X every day.  X = 5 for a village or a Castle and 10 for a Town.  Then for every faction member you have in a fief, the loyalty goes up by 1 per day.  Finally, maximum fief efficiency is multiplied by the Population Loyalty %.  This means that you have to continually populate all your fiefs with faction members which in turn limits how big a faction can grow.  So a 10 man clan will be able to hold 2 castles/villages (although they won't be able to increase the population loyalty).  A 50 member clan meanwhile will be able to hold 10 castles/villages or 8 castles/villages + 1 Town.

I don't know exactly how many faction members there are in Strat, but my value for X can be changed based on the total number of faction members.  There are 109 villages, 48 castles and 22 Towns so my values for X will support upto 1005 Strat faction members without forcing conflict.  As an aim I'd try to support around 90% of the faction members so that a bit on conflict is necessary :D.  So the following formual for X should be right

X = Total_Strat_faction_members / 0.9 / (#_of_villages + #_of_castles + 2*#_of_Towns)
X is then doubled for Towns

This method will still allow wars of conquest against other factions, as it takes time for your loyalty to decrease, but fighting these wars is not to gain land, it is to wipe someone out to allow new factions to take their land or to take their land in place of your old lands as they are better.

EDIT: forgot to say. If loyalty gets to 0%, the fief rebels and turns neutral

EDIT2: An alternative to my 90% option is to make it 110% which will ensure that there are always neutral fiefs around.  Also there needs to be some sort of major bonus to holding a town to make sure people go for these, which in turn will free up villages for new factions to conquer
« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 07:18:09 pm by Tomas »

Offline Tristan

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+1
We still need incentives and actions for individual players. There need to be something_they_can_do.
I fully get that more npc's are bad, but then lets consider more alternatives.

A larger map will definitely make a difference. It gives more room and time for smaller clans to prepare a defense.

At the same time some sort of cost should be associated with keeping large amounts of troops in one place. Disease often killed more soldiers than wars.

If more than x allied_troops in y vincinity, then z% dies and q% equipment is lost.

This gives smaller clans a figthing chance against steamrolling. Moving thousands of troops should not be easily possible and terrain should have a huge impact on this!
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