can we all admit the new (last balance patch) archer paradigm is fucking terribl

[BADPLAYERold]

Also, Archers have no natural counter except other archers. Most people assume the counter to Archery is Cavalry but that couldn't be further from the truth, I have played cavalry for a long time and trust me when I say that archers beat Light Cavalry 1v1 100% of the time assuming they are of the same skill. The only way Light Cav can beat archers is by stabbing them from behind and if that isn't a 1hit kill (Which alot of the time now it isn't) you just have to run away and hope the archer doesn't shoot your horse taking off a huge amount of it's health (Rounceys can be 2shot, Coursers 3shot, Destriers 3-4 shot, not taking into account speed bonus of course, if you charge right into the archer and he manages to shoot you it will do alot more damage).

[Arrowblood]

i havent read all this here, but dont kill my longbow.

[Tears of Destiny]

I blame bodkins for a bit of this. In some ways it makes a lot of sense from a technical perspective, perfect sense really, to have arrow types dictate bow damage, but from a game balance perspective it did not work out smoothly (in my glorious opinion mind you). Returning Long Bow to pierce would make me happy, this way the heavier armours feel more proper... (And for the love of all that is holy, leave the Rus Bow cut!)

Though there is an insane amount of heavy cav spam for NA servers (Unlike EU where there is only a few... What is up with that?), last night out of 50-ish there was I think a dozen heavy cav?. So in some ways I am a little glad for so many bodkins, but still... Unfair is Unfair.
Next problem, and in my eyes the main problem, is that balance sometimes puts a discrepancy of classes on one side. Having one side have a cavalry or archer superiority by a noticeable amount is not very fun, though I am not sure of the cRPG team can find a way to fix this issue.
Pew Pew Pew.
Last point (and some of you may not want to hear this) is that if you allow archers to wear heavier armor, this might encourage a few to wear it and thus be substantially easier to catch (yes they will take more hits but at least you can get to the point to lock them silly). I admit I am not sure how good of an idea this is though, it is a double-edged sword so to speak.
Just remember that when nerfing something, don't do a shotgun approach and blast everything. Instead of tweak one or two select things and have it gently settle down to a good point. Demanding Overnerfing because you as a player are overreacting is just sad.

[BADPLAYERold]

Though there is an insane amount of heavy cav spam for NA servers (Unlike EU where there is only a few... What is up with that?), last night out of 50-ish there was I think a dozen heavy cav?. So in some ways I am a little glad for so many bodkins, but still... Unfair is Unfair.

That is because people go cavalry to kill archers, realise light cavalry are useless for that and then start using the overpowered heavy horses.

[Kophka]

My crazy suggestion of the week is that we stack a shit-ton of random plains maps into the server rotation. Then cavalry actually CAN be a counter to ranged, while ranged can be a counter to shieldless infantry, and polearms (and pole-swords, lol)  can continue being a counter to cav. Right now, the only counter to ranged is range, since they can shoot from safety with out being in danger until the round is nearly done.

[Tears of Destiny]

I really enjoy the random plains maps in all honesty. I notice that even randomers stick together after the first round and really make good team work with one another.

Random Hilly Plains though are the devil... Too much camping.

[B3RS3RK]

My crazy suggestion of the week is that we stack a shit-ton of random plains maps into the server rotation. Then cavalry actually CAN be a counter to ranged, while ranged can be a counter to shieldless infantry, and polearms (and pole-swords, lol)  can continue being a counter to cav. Right now, the only counter to ranged is range, since they can shoot from safety with out being in danger until the round is nearly done.

Dude you crazy?

Random Plains always mean that half of the Teams consist of Cavalry, leaving the Infantry basically no chance.

or even worse, one team with a lot of cav and one with almost none.Guess who will win,

[BADPLAYERold]

My crazy suggestion of the week is that we stack a shit-ton of random plains maps into the server rotation. Then cavalry actually CAN be a counter to ranged, while ranged can be a counter to shieldless infantry, and polearms (and pole-swords, lol)  can continue being a counter to cav. Right now, the only counter to ranged is range, since they can shoot from safety with out being in danger until the round is nearly done.

Random plains maps are hilariously good for archers, they have a COMPLETE view of the map and can shoot at anyone, i'm not saying they are bad for cavalry but if your goal is to make cavalry better against archers this wouldn't fufill it. All the archers do is group together in 1 place making it impossible for cavalry to get near without being shot to pieces.

[Gheritarish le Loki]

Same problem that one year ago : numbers of archer, that's all...

[B3RS3RK]

They are like roaches, no matter what you do to them, the population increases.

If we implemented Nuclear bombs into cRPG Archers would be the only one surviving them.

[Kophka]

I really enjoy the random plains maps in all honesty. I notice that even randomers stick together after the first round and really make good team work with one another.

Random Hilly Plains though are the devil... Too much camping.

Exactly. Every build has it's place in a random plains map. No one is useless.

Dude you crazy?

Random Plains always mean that half of the Teams consist of Cavalry, leaving the Infantry basically no chance.

or even worse, one team with a lot of cav and one with almost none.Guess who will win,

This is completely wrong. Guess what kills cavalry? Ranged, Polearms, long 2 handers, other cavalry. How does infantry have no chance against cav? All they have to do is not scatter like ants when you kick the ant-hill. I've watched infantry dominate on random plains, it's pretty cool to see. I've also seen ranged and cavalry dominate on them. Just depends on what the team decides to do or not do.

Random plains maps are hilariously good for archers, they have a COMPLETE view of the map and can shoot at anyone, i'm not saying they are bad for cavalry but if your goal is to make cavalry better against archers this wouldn't fufill it. All the archers do is group together in 1 place making it impossible for cavalry to get near without being shot to pieces.

It's good for everyone that's on a team that is playing together to win. Shieldless people follow the shields until it's time to strike, the cavalry screen against cav, polearms ward off the ones that get through, ranged takes down stray cav and other range, and cavalry provides a distraction while infantry maneuver. Sounds like a battle to me.

[Paul]

It's only a battle if sweaty men with long 2 handed weapons fight each other, undisturbed by ranged or cavalry.

[Kalam]

I've always had a personal vendetta against archers. Back in the day, I did it by backstabbing them and dodging arrows. These days, I handle it with 8 shield and 8 athletics. Still, I rarely two-shot them with an italian sword stab to the head from behind, and they tend to run away from me despite the fact that I have more athletics and wear a gambeson + padded coif. It's the weight of the shield that's the issue here, and as always, you can't really advance on an archer if he's got more ranged friends ready to shoot you in the side. I could use the buckler, but they tend to just shoot my feet.

I'm not saying that playing an archer is easier, but they are definitely playing a different game here. Individual balance is fine at the moment, but the group dynamics are annoying. All those heavy cavalry and all those archers make it ridiculous to try and fight alongside a pubbie team.

This is also one of the reasons you see nothing but round shields (they offer better protection vs. projectiles for some reason) out there- but that's another issue.

tl;dr
There are lots of archers. Do something to make them run more slowly without +7 athletics and make several of the bows fulfill different roles.

[Xant]

It's only a battle if sweaty men with long 2 handed weapons fight each other, undisturbed by ranged or cavalry.

Sweaty oiled men.

[Kafein]

Also, Archers have no natural counter except other archers. Most people assume the counter to Archery is Cavalry but that couldn't be further from the truth, I have played cavalry for a long time and trust me when I say that archers beat Light Cavalry 1v1 100% of the time assuming they are of the same skill. The only way Light Cav can beat archers is by stabbing them from behind and if that isn't a 1hit kill (Which alot of the time now it isn't) you just have to run away and hope the archer doesn't shoot your horse taking off a huge amount of it's health (Rounceys can be 2shot, Coursers 3shot, Destriers 3-4 shot, not taking into account speed bonus of course, if you charge right into the archer and he manages to shoot you it will do alot more damage).

This.

My crazy suggestion of the week is that we stack a shit-ton of random plains maps into the server rotation. Then cavalry actually CAN be a counter to ranged, while ranged can be a counter to shieldless infantry, and polearms (and pole-swords, lol)  can continue being a counter to cav. Right now, the only counter to ranged is range, since they can shoot from safety with out being in danger until the round is nearly done.

Although I absolutely love random plains, it doesn't help cav against archers at all. Maybe against inf but I think the inf already are the most struggling on open plains. Even if the map is flawlessly flat, it's very hard to kill archers as cav when there's nothing to hide behind. Cav are ninja, and therefore are paradoxically advantaged by buildings (when the enemy isn't over them ofc.), as long as there isn't a single bump in the ground. When the map isn't flat, the archers just camp on a hill and cav can't do anything (when a horse has to go up or down a 5° slope, he stops just like in real life).


The only counter to archers are shielders. But the main problem with shields is that the so called "forcefield" has been "fixed" long ago and therefore arrows can go through many shields easily. You have to spend at least 6 points in shield to get your real shield coverage. And even with 6, some shields (board and heather mainly) still don't match with the model. However, some other shields (autoblock bucklers for example) still have a ridiculous force field.
Furthermore, a shield slows you down a lot. So it's either being a turtle or hitting like a sissy. Even if you are a sissy and able to catch archers (except when there are more than one of them, in that case you are shot in the back and dead), you aren't very likely to escape the enemy inf or cav. Shielders are very weak against cav, especially the str shielders that take the shortest route and might not die in the main clash.

So yeah, shielders are the only non-ranged counter to ranged, but they are very weak. Even worse, they do a lot better against infantry than against archers. 1h do the fastest feints and are just sub-par compared to most 2h and polearms.


The main balance problem is that infantry is the easiest prey for literaly any class, including itself.