Author Topic: Why Upkeep is a Little TOO Realistic, or: Why Math is Awesome.  (Read 6004 times)

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Offline Kafein

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Re: Why Upkeep is a Little TOO Realistic, or: Why Math is Awesome.
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2011, 12:00:45 am »
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lol, kafein totally not on topic but I couldn't stop laughing reading your sig-graph about helping parents with computer-problems. Endless hours when I visit my parents or on phone and all I'm doing is on this sheet. Though on phone things can get really complicated...

TY  :)

Actually I was sort of hoping it would make people laugh just like it did for me x)


Btw : Dehitay, hitting the infinite seems like an interesting concept. No, really ! I'm not sure what you wanted to say, but in this case, you can't add the probabilities no matter what. Adding the probability of each tick for an infinite amout of ticks would lead to infinite probably (what ?). However, the real probability of an item breaking tends to 1 with the tick count tending to the infinite.


And that's why there exist a t time when after it, it is best to make the round as long as possible. Because the income at each tick is a constant, yet the chances of yours items breaking are actually decreasing, because they may already be broken, and the chance of them being already broken increases with time. Imagine you play a long enough round for all your items to break. You are now playing without upkeep.


Offline CaptainQuantum

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Re: Why Upkeep is a Little TOO Realistic, or: Why Math is Awesome.
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2011, 08:22:37 pm »
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I trust in Quantum the Mathman

Yeah I trust that guy too hes awesome :) And for future reference, I will post this again so you can see how the mathematics of (simple) probability works :)

I worked this out assuming an average multiplier of x2 and it's around 38500 gold, which is a good amount in my opinion.

Calculation follows:
One item
Expected loss=P(break)*Cost of break
                      =P(break)*aC   where a=0.07 and C =gear cost
n items
Expected loss=[P(break)a(C1)]+[P(break)a(C2)]+......
                      =P(break)a(Total gear cost)
Ok now you get 100 gold per tick so:
100/(a*P(break)=max sustainable gear cost~38500 gold
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 08:32:16 pm by CaptainQuantum »

Offline Leshma

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Re: Why Upkeep is a Little TOO Realistic, or: Why Math is Awesome.
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2011, 08:44:25 pm »
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Quote
...
Expected loss=[P(break)a(C1)]+[P(break)a(C2)]+......
                      =P(break)a(Total gear cost)
...

resembles total probability formula a lot, i mean it has the same structure

and it's all fine and dandy but it's outdated.. because the wpf is a very important variable...
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 08:46:03 pm by Leshma »

Offline CaptainQuantum

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Re: Why Upkeep is a Little TOO Realistic, or: Why Math is Awesome.
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2011, 08:48:54 pm »
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I don't think anyone knows the dependence on wpf other than devs, plus I believe over a certain wpf there will be no effect, since thats what the devs wanted it for. So I guess my method is a good reasonable approximation until we have numbers on how wpf affects it. Certainly from what I have seen ~34000 stills earns me money.

Offline BootyBuster

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Re: Why Upkeep is a Little TOO Realistic, or: Why Math is Awesome.
« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2011, 11:25:53 am »
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Why are people arguing who's doing the math 100% correctly? The point of the post looks like it says "Unfair Upkeep costs," right?

So stop with the I'm better at math then you bullshit. Cause that's pretty lame.


It is unfair, in fact it's pretty damn cheap. The guys got a good point.

Maybe he wasn't 100% correct but he doesn't have to be. It was a good estimate and showed how much we are getting screwed.


Offline Camaris

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Re: Why Upkeep is a Little TOO Realistic, or: Why Math is Awesome.
« Reply #50 on: November 17, 2011, 12:07:46 pm »
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just read the topic if you dont understand why people argue about math....

Offline robbie88

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Re: Why Upkeep is a Little TOO Realistic, or: Why Math is Awesome.
« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2011, 07:17:37 pm »
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I started playing with 700g and played for 3h hours, after playing I got 250g.
I dont need to calculate anything to proof this as an debatable system  :?

My Equip cost are just: 25,058 gold:

-Crude Coat of Plates ~15k
-War Cleaver ~7,2k
-Leather Gloves ~290
-Splinted Leather Greaves over Mail ~1,8k
-Kettle Hat ~1,9k

If you want you can calculate now how unlikely it is to play for 3h with my crapgear and lose 450g.  :mad:


Offline Skysong

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Re: Why Upkeep is a Little TOO Realistic, or: Why Math is Awesome.
« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2011, 07:43:45 pm »
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It's said before a couple of times on forums; make 2 sets for your char:

- A cheaper ( around 20k) set for 1x and 2x
- The expensive set you like for 3x+

 and keep on earning gold. 8-)

Offline Leshma

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Re: Why Upkeep is a Little TOO Realistic, or: Why Math is Awesome.
« Reply #53 on: November 18, 2011, 08:12:52 pm »
+1
Proof why upkeep sucks:

there is no upkeep in Skyrim

EoD.

Offline CaptainQuantum

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Re: Why Upkeep is a Little TOO Realistic, or: Why Math is Awesome.
« Reply #54 on: November 18, 2011, 10:34:19 pm »
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The reason we are arguing about it is because his maths produces a completely wrong answer. The actually stable amount is around 38500, and as Leshma said this is reduced due to WPF depedencies, which I believe to have little effect after a certain value. So the point is that <35000 is more than likely sustainable.

Offline Sergee

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Re: Why Upkeep is a Little TOO Realistic, or: Why Math is Awesome.
« Reply #55 on: November 19, 2011, 04:01:47 am »
-1
Raise upkeep IMO !!!!!
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THE 99% WILL LOOK UP AND SAY "FEED ME"
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Offline robbie88

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Re: Why Upkeep is a Little TOO Realistic, or: Why Math is Awesome.
« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2011, 09:11:51 pm »
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yea but my Equip is 25000 and I am constantly losing money  :rolleyes:

and the dude I play with got equip with 83k and lose like nothing. some kind of bug? idk.  :|
« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 09:16:42 pm by robbie88 »

Offline Maximus101

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Re: Why Upkeep is a Little TOO Realistic, or: Why Math is Awesome.
« Reply #57 on: November 19, 2011, 11:57:05 pm »
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I can go from using 120k worth of gear to 30k worth of gear sometimes lose more with the 30k coz when I am using a plated charger and rus scale armour and stuff like that doing bumps and picking up kills change the outcome of the round, rather than using a shitty rouncey, taking a couple of unarmoured foes down with me but doing nothing to win the game... But those 4k horse repairs can be shit especially when I am using all my armour slots, a horse slot, a lance and a shield and a 1 hander.. Paying upkeep is just unavoidable. I reckon a new system is needed- easier said than done ;(

Offline Tenzek

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Re: Why Upkeep is a Little TOO Realistic, or: Why Math is Awesome.
« Reply #58 on: November 20, 2011, 05:13:15 am »
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There's nothing wrong with his probability unless you know for certain that somebody is only playing for a set amount of time. But since players play the game indefinitely, the number of ticks is going to be indefinite and you could just as well use infinity. As you get closer and closer to infinity, the variance will slim. And when you hit infinity, it will disappear. So with an infinite number of ticks, each piece of equipment will break once every 25 minutes. But that is ignoring wpf. Somebody mentioned wpf, but that's too much variability to get into.

For the record, I finished college with an engineering degree, which means I took Probability & Statistics as well as a crapload of other math classes.

It works on a per-round basis, though. Then it resets.

A round probably lasts 3-5 ticks during which you can only be affected by a damaged item roll a maximum of once per item.

If a round lasts 5 ticks and a specific item fails each of the 5 rolls, you only pay once. After a new round starts, the fail chance counts again.

Also, if you want to consider an infinite number of ticks, you have an infinite amount of gold and the entire model breaks down completely. You need to look at it one round at a time to make the model practical, and 5 doesn't really come that close to infinity.

After the bragging about your degree, I can't tell if you're a very convincing troll or if you're serious.
 

yea but my Equip is 25000 and I am constantly losing money  :rolleyes:

and the dude I play with got equip with 83k and lose like nothing. some kind of bug? idk.  :|

It helps to build up a nest egg. The amount of gold you're making at a given time can vary depending on how lucky you are with team wins and with chance of needing to repair. Build up a little bit of buffer and you will have some room to dip down a few thousand without it being a problem. You'll make up for it later when your luck turns. You should be making money pretty quickly with only 25k in gear, but there will be fluctuations.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 05:32:29 am by Tenzek »

Offline Swahili_Zulu_Mon

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Re: Why Upkeep is a Little TOO Realistic, or: Why Math is Awesome.
« Reply #59 on: November 20, 2011, 08:27:34 am »
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Math is racist.
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