Blatant rage about 2h facehugging uber power

[Gurnisson]

I wouldn't call the greatswords slow

[Camaris]

If you make them even slower noone will use them anymore.

[Gurnisson]

If you make them even slower noone will use them anymore.

I don't say they should, but if it happened people would've adapted. Those swords are only relatively slow on heavy armoured strength builds anyway. That said, they're fine as it is. If it had become like WFaS, players like kinngrim wouldn't have needed their shield vs. 2H, since they could've just spammed the left swing all the time.

[kongxinga]

http://www.luminarium.org/medlit/medprice.htm

Thank you for the link. I love these historical item pricings. I was however talking about Native M+B prices.

However that price list unfortunately shows exactly the mindset that runs in crpg. IE the western european catholic state of affairs, or worse, the "london" state of affairs.

We all know horses were horrendously expensive in england, being an island and all that, but move somewhere else in europe where you have horses coming out of the wazoo, and there you would find them to be relatively inexpensive while swords or armour would need a king's ransom. These are the places where an all mounted army was the norm. CRPG seems to conform to this stereotypical medieval image based in london.

I wish this "london" crpg one size fit all prices could change, say by having a location variable for chars. Those who enjoy the oversized 2 hand and plate nonsense can choose the german states, while people wishing to play sensibly could choose the regions of modern turkey for reasonable horse prices. These locations could also affect item availability.

Was here for gaga, did not find her too bad. Anti cav cav could take her out fast. I did not play as a crunchy, so perhaps I had it easier.

[Zisa]

Let's be honest here...
If this is really a problem, you should try a different class.

I get glanced in my pilgrim disguise more by 2handers and poles then 1 handers, and there are far too many decent 1handers (even with shield) for me to take any suggestion to buff them seriously.

[Thucydides]

We all know horses were horrendously expensive in england, being an island and all that, but move somewhere else in europe where you have horses coming out of the wazoo, and there you would find them to be relatively inexpensive while swords or armour would need a king's ransom. These are the places where an all mounted army was the norm. CRPG seems to conform to this stereotypical medieval image based in london.

I wish this "london" crpg one size fit all prices could change, say by having a location variable for chars. Those who enjoy the oversized 2 hand and plate nonsense can choose the german states, while people wishing to play sensibly could choose the regions of modern turkey for reasonable horse prices. These locations could also affect item availability.

no european nation has ever had an "all cavalry" army. Even during the 100 year war you see the french using "men at arms" that ride into battle on horses but dismount to fight. European nations that have a large cavalry contingent tended to be in large aristocratic nations that have a large peasant class to support the upper class. This allows the nobility to hire more retainers and household guards, who tend to also be mounted to keep up with the lord. England, with it's citizen militia and yeoman longbowmen, did not have the same degree of feudalism, and thus cannot support a large cavalry army as other nations. However, at crecy the english managed to field 4000 knights and men at arms, out of a total of 21000 troops, which is more than enough for it's role as exploiters of broken lines.
Fact is, the majority of a medieval army consisted of coursers and rouncies, which is the standard for crpg. A rouncy costs less than all the "heavy" armor, while a courser costs as much as a transistional. A plated charger cost twice as much as a milanese plate, which makes sense considering its a horse armored in plate.

[kongxinga]

No european army had an all cavalry army if and only if your europe ended at the Rhine. And even on the side of the Rhine you are talking about, we had chevauchees, which were pretty much 100% mounted detachments, although not everyone fought on horseback.

But what I am trying to get across is that there is nothing wrong with a 100% mounted army. It does not look wrong, contrary to the declarations of some. The amount of plate in crpg should however raise eyebrows.

[Thucydides]

No european army had an all cavalry army if and only if your europe ended at the Rhine. And even on the side of the Rhine you are talking about, we had chevauchees, which were pretty much 100% mounted detachments, although not everyone fought on horseback.

But what I am trying to get across is that there is nothing wrong with a 100% mounted army. It does not look wrong, contrary to the declarations of some. The amount of plate in crpg should however raise eyebrows.

Turkey is not part of europe, no matter how much you cry about it. Even the arab states, the majority of their armed forces were infantry by the crusades. The turks was an "all cavalry" force but they used ponies and light horses, not plated chargers and destiers. No all cav army used any horses heavier than a courser, so i don't see your point here. Those horses are cheaper than plate mail, and especially the courser is extremely good in the hands of a skilled huey..

[kongxinga]

Yes but should not steppes and arabians be a lot cheaper given the all cav armies in Turkey? Was going to take our interesting discussion to the PMs, but then I get a "Turkey is not Europe" jaw dropper. How about the formerly non Christendom Eastern European parts?

Do you get angry when faction rotation in native breaks up non stop swads versus nords to include Khergits and Sarranids?
 
 

[Thucydides]

Yes but should not steppes and arabians be a lot cheaper given the all cav armies in Turkey? Was going to take our interesting discussion to the PMs, but then I get a "Turkey is not Europe" jaw dropper. How about the formerly non Christendom Eastern European parts?

Do you get angry when faction rotation in native breaks up non stop swads versus nords to include Khergits and Sarranids?

not arabians, steppe horses maybe. But steppe horse are already pretty cheap, equal to upper teir medium armor. Outfitted as a typical mongol, you shouldnt even come close to breaking the bank. before i retired i would use first a desert horse then a steppe horse after riding nerf with 66k worth of equip on top of the horse, i did not break the bank at all, i lost maybe 10-15k but i earned it all back after my retirement.

turkey is not europe because europe cuts off at the hellespont/dardanelles. Asia minor has always been considered a near eastern territory. The russians and eastern europe extends as far as the uraj mountains, which beyond that point we have steppe people who are pastoralist and not agriculturalists like their european counterparts.

btw this isn't to put down the turks or anyone, you guys just aren't european. Its ok to acknowledge your role as foreign subjegators of anatolia, no one will think less of you.

[Tears of Destiny]

There... are... several.. sub-cultures... of Turkey... Like Seljuks... Or Ottomans... who reside in... different parts... must resist... urge... failing...

[Thucydides]

There... are... several.. sub-cultures... of Turkey... Like Seljuks... Or Ottomans... who reside in... different parts... must resist... urge... failing...

hur dur?

[Tears of Destiny]

hur dur?

Some parts of Turkey including whole sub-cultures are in Europe... You can't just say "Does not count as European."

[Camaris]

It does not count!!!

[Thucydides]

Some parts of Turkey including whole sub-cultures are in Europe... You can't just say "Does not count as European."

i suppose so, but  the majority of the population of turks live in asia minor. For example, It would be fair to refer to russia as european up to the uraj mountains, but any farther they would be considered asian. Likewise, you can refer to a "european turkey" but is turkey european? not really. To be european a majority of your population must reside in the european subconinent.