Author Topic: Acher nerf  (Read 2735 times)

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Offline ToniTcc

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Re: Acher nerf
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2011, 10:19:10 pm »
+1
You guys have clearly lost the route of this thread. Thax was saying about nerfing archers damage against plate.
Why the heck do you think that Xbows were made, as knights amount increased? Yes, it was to pierce that freaking thick plate, which normal (even pierching) arrows couldn't do.

You guys like to praise that Warband is most realistic ancient "simulator", but I can't see this happening as normal archer can kill a KNIGHT?!
Wake up, how many times you have heard from stories/documents (other than Robin Hood) that normal peasantarcher have killed fully equipped knight? I havent neither.
I can get the idea that Enlighsmens longbows could kill knights, but hey, they had always over 2000 archers ready to fire death upon incoming knights, ofcourse that amount got easily find those little gaps in armor.
Straight shot with piercing arrow just can't go trough plate, it its impossible!

"Armour penetration"

It has been suggested that the bodkin came into its own as a means of penetrating armour, but research by the Royal Armouries has found no hardened bodkin points, though only two bodkin points were actually tested, not a statistically relevant number. Bodkins did, however, have greater ability to pierce mail armour than broadheads, and historical accounts do speak of bodkin arrows shot from close range piercing plate armour. Broadheads were made from steel, sometimes with hardened edges, but were more often used against lightly armoured men or horses than against an armoured adversary.

In a modern test, a direct hit from a steel bodkin point penetrated Damascus chain armour, although at point blank range. However, the test was conducted without a padded jack or gambeson, which was layered cloth armor worn over heavier armor for protection against projectiles, as it was known to stop even heavy arrows. Furthermore, and despite the author's assertion, the penetration ability of the arrow would decline according to the distance it has traveled due to drag. Lastly, a human body standing will give, another factor not accounted for in this experiment.

Some recent tests have demonstrated that needle bodkins could penetrate all but heavy steel plate armour; one test used padded "jack" armour, coat of plates, iron and steel mail and steel plate. A needle bodkin penetrated every type, but may not have been able to inflict a lethal injury behind plate.

Here is text from wikipedia for all you whiners, who want to say that it could be possible.

It is damn annoying to fight as a 2 hander, when you know that even one good shot from archer can deal over half of damage (8 if for me).
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Offline zagibu

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Re: Acher nerf
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2011, 10:44:15 pm »
0
I don't know who keeps repeating this shit, but crossbows could not pierce plate. Crossbows were not made to pierce plate, they were made because you can aim any amount of time without needing strength, and with proper reloading helps (levers or even winchblocks) even untrained weaklings (aka. peasants) can use them.

Good plate could even withstand early firearms.

Also, chainmail was much more resistant than most people think. Riveted chainmail could transform a deadly spear thrust into a blunt attack. And you could certainly not "cut" through chainmail at all.

BUT: We are talking about cRPG, and not reality. I think it's pretty well balanced. Maybe buff armors some, I still think they are not worth what they cost. I never see more than 10% wearing anything heavier than a transitional. Kind of strange, considering the OP claims of some people.
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Offline Okkam

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Re: Acher nerf
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2011, 12:37:52 am »
0
Quote
Why the heck do you think that Xbows were made, as knights amount increased?

Because militia with xbows was much cheaper than trained archers.

Also «Knight» doesnt mean «Plate crutcher». Armor for battle and armor for tournament was not same.

Offline Duke

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Re: Acher nerf
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2011, 01:58:42 am »
0
I don't know who keeps repeating this shit, but crossbows could not pierce plate.

Your claim made me curious enough to search on Youtube for an armor test vs crossbows...
and I could not find any.

There's armor tests vs bow & arrows, even Spanish conquistador armor vs Atlatls but I could not find any crossbow vs armor tests. I don't know what to make of that.

Offline Xant

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Re: Acher nerf
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2011, 02:59:37 am »
0
archery is most deadly class on real world

not.
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as in the Haiku.

Offline Joxer

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Re: Acher nerf
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2011, 07:17:03 am »
+1
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Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: Acher nerf
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2011, 08:49:04 am »
0
A standard arbalest, not counting steel pavise ones, a wooden one mind you, averages two thousand newtons of pull...

That will put a dent in most things. Not pierce plate my ass...
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Offline Elmokki

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Re: Acher nerf
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2011, 11:04:21 am »
0
Oh god seriously, if we want to take the realism route I'm fairly sure not too many people will fight very well with an arrow piercing one of their limbs. Or with one of their limbs cut with a sword.

Offline Lennu

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Re: Acher nerf
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2011, 12:15:14 pm »
0
Warband just isn't "good enough" to simulate all this shiet. I agree that arrows shouldn't pierce plated armor. But the plated armor didn't provide full cover. And this game can't provide us the "weak spots" in armors. Face was really vulnerable for example, since the knight had so see through his helmet  :lol: as well as armpits which weren't protected by plate at all. So the reason why plate doesn't offer perfect protections against arrows is Game Balance.

This game lacks many other things as well. Armors weight for example: Full plated knight with Plate Armor, chainmail and padded armor all weight so much that should the knight lose his balance and fall down, he couldn't get up without help :D Imagine this in warband. 1 agi peasant dodging arrows and pushing full plate tincans down  :lol: The rage would be hilarious. " My 80k gold armor is all fucked up. A level 2 peasant killed me by pushing me down and poking me to death with a pitchfork!"

Basicly a situation like this is like semi- rock-paper-scissors. Archers can 1 shot peasants (altho the peasant can kill the archer if he gets close). Peasant however, can just run to the knight and push him down so he can't get up, unless an enemy peasant comes and helps the knight to get back up (the knight can swing his sword and Choppa-Choppa the peasant if he's not carefull). And finally, knights are pretty much invulnerale to arrows :D

Peasants were cheap. Archers weren't that cheap. Tincans were expensive. Then came the crossbows:
Peasants were cheap + crossbows were cheap + (xbow > tincan) = win   -> tincans try to voteban xbow'ers out, but they get less than 51% from all the votes.

Later on came the firearms:
Peasants were cheap + cannons(collateral damage and bonus against fortifications) + flintlock weapons = tincans GTX and become musketeers  :lol:
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 12:16:16 pm by Lennu »

Offline Vibe

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Re: Acher nerf
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2011, 01:46:49 pm »
0
Peasants were cheap + cannons(collateral damage and bonus against fortifications) + flintlock weapons = tincans GTX and become musketeers  :lol:

True, look how far this has gotten us, now we only fight with ranged (guns, bombs, rockets, ...) :(

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Re: Acher nerf
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2011, 02:20:35 pm »
+1
So we all conclude that Ranged is OP and needs a nerf, obviously. *trololololo*

Yes, stop this before

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« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 02:22:48 pm by Vibe »

Offline mandible/splinteryourjaw

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Re: Acher nerf
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2011, 03:01:46 pm »
0
You guys have clearly lost the route of this thread. Thax was saying about nerfing archers damage against plate.
Why the heck do you think that Xbows were made, as knights amount increased? Yes, it was to pierce that freaking thick plate, which normal (even pierching) arrows couldn't do.

You guys like to praise that Warband is most realistic ancient "simulator", but I can't see this happening as normal archer can kill a KNIGHT?!
Wake up, how many times you have heard from stories/documents (other than Robin Hood) that normal peasantarcher have killed fully equipped knight? I havent neither.
I can get the idea that Enlighsmens longbows could kill knights, but hey, they had always over 2000 archers ready to fire death upon incoming knights, ofcourse that amount got easily find those little gaps in armor.
Straight shot with piercing arrow just can't go trough plate, it its impossible!

"Armour penetration"

It has been suggested that the bodkin came into its own as a means of penetrating armour, but research by the Royal Armouries has found no hardened bodkin points, though only two bodkin points were actually tested, not a statistically relevant number. Bodkins did, however, have greater ability to pierce mail armour than broadheads, and historical accounts do speak of bodkin arrows shot from close range piercing plate armour. Broadheads were made from steel, sometimes with hardened edges, but were more often used against lightly armoured men or horses than against an armoured adversary.

In a modern test, a direct hit from a steel bodkin point penetrated Damascus chain armour, although at point blank range. However, the test was conducted without a padded jack or gambeson, which was layered cloth armor worn over heavier armor for protection against projectiles, as it was known to stop even heavy arrows. Furthermore, and despite the author's assertion, the penetration ability of the arrow would decline according to the distance it has traveled due to drag. Lastly, a human body standing will give, another factor not accounted for in this experiment.

Some recent tests have demonstrated that needle bodkins could penetrate all but heavy steel plate armour; one test used padded "jack" armour, coat of plates, iron and steel mail and steel plate. A needle bodkin penetrated every type, but may not have been able to inflict a lethal injury behind plate.

Here is text from wikipedia for all you whiners, who want to say that it could be possible.

It is damn annoying to fight as a 2 hander, when you know that even one good shot from archer can deal over half of damage (8 if for me).

Why do people continue with this garbage!!!  Because you want it to be doesn't mean it is!!!  Here is an experiment for you; Fill a 5 gal bucket with sand, Take a .45 caliber pistol and a bow of your choice (use a bodkin type arrow though,) and shoot at the bucket...you might be surprised at what you pull out the other side. 

These arguments against bodkin penetration are flawed.  I guarantee you that a bodkin fired from the moon has a much better chance of penetrating plate than a flat sword, which is good for nothing but cutting.  The bodkins power is in its tip (read surface area) and momentum.  The surface area on the swords blade...no comparison.  Unless you run around thrusting (  :oops:) all the time your sword is almost useless.  Don't take my word for it.  Go to the local flea market, buy a cheap sword, and then attack your car (with swings.)  No success???  Ok now try thrusts?  (Disclaimer: The author is in no way responsible for an idiot actually conducting this experiment on his or anyone elses vehicle)  Remember a car skin is really thin.  Now shoot it with a bodkin.  To save you the time; the sword my put a few scratches or dents in the car...the arrow will be found inside!!!

P.S. it is common belief that if a knight fell he couldn't get up.....please research that assertion before posting it as gospel.

Longbowmen were required to practice constantly, BY LAW.  They were deadly accurate, expensively maintained, and crucial on the field.  Xbows were used because they were cheaper in the long run and could be used by anybody with very little if any training (who is purpoerted to have killed Richard the Lionheart.)

Here are some websites, in addition to others I've posted in other posts (please inform yourself before spreading information...and no I won't weed through them to find the info you need.)

http://www.thebeckoning.com/medieval/crossbow/cross_l_v_c.html
http://archeryreport.com/2011/01/heavy-vs-light-arrows-speed-power/
http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/Dr.-Ed-Ashby-W26.aspx
http://archeryreport.com/articles/

p.s. anything is possible though, I once shot a hog and hit his armor plate (very thick slab of bone covering his shoulder), didn't really hurt him but my aluminum arrow bounced and when I retrieved it I found it was bent  :shock:

Offline Wookimonsta

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Re: Acher nerf
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2011, 03:25:40 pm »
0
A standard arbalest, not counting steel pavise ones, a wooden one mind you, averages two thousand newtons of pull...

That will put a dent in most things. Not pierce plate my ass...
I SAY BIG NUMBERS AND DONT UNDERSTAND HOW PHYSICS WORK!
fixed, also summarizes most of this thread
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Offline zagibu

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Re: Acher nerf
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2011, 10:44:32 pm »
+1
I always have to laugh at those "armor tests" where they fire at a tightly held plate of perfectly flat metal from an accurate inverse surface normal direction at a distance of a few meters. I laugh, because that's exactly how ranged weapons were used in battle. Except they never test them with historically accurate rainbow unicorns as ammunition.
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Offline LordRichrich

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Re: Acher nerf
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2011, 12:02:45 am »
0
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD NO MORE REALISM ARGUMENTS, THEY DON'T MAKE A GAME THAT THE CURRENT COMMUNITY WANT TO PLAY.

So, yes, crossbows, longbows and peasants with kitchen knives fucked over plate. no one cares.
If theres a knight and four peasant run up to him with knives, he should insta-die.
If I over head with my bill hook, it should disarm you and have a 50% of breaking your arm.
If I run you over with a horse you should die.
If you pike my horse it should catapult over the pike and crush you.
If I shoot your horse in the leg it should throw you off.
If I hit your crappy little axe with a bar mace it should crush past it, no matter the direction.
Strength shouldn't be determined by skill points, you should be assigned a genetic profile, which includes your natural HDL and LDL ratio and metabolism, and then you should go weight lift. Then you should go talk to the trainer, then you should go make money as a black smith and then forge your own weapon and kill ap ig and an the leather for your armour then go down the mines to et some ore, smelt the ore and attempt to craft some armour. After the 20th go you'd make an armour. This should be done in real time so you can start playing after about 20 years. also when you die, you have to start again. ISN'T REALISM FUN!
The list is endless.