Hoping for some feedback on a few views

[Sir_Simon_Jekyll]

Now before you read the meaty bit of this post be aware that it is very long. So if you would fit into the category of someone who might just post a gripe indicating something insulting towards me for writing it despite its content, read another post because that wouldn't be funny or clever. This post is thought out and designed in a way that I hope we can improve c-RPG.

I have now been playing for maybe 2 months now and I have noticed a few things. First off I think that C-RPG should be regarded as a look to the future in online gaming of this kind because there is nothing even close to it out there but there are aspects of it that really bring the game down. For example. Take your box standard Battle, 30 a side. Lets say it lasts 5 minutes and the top player will kill say 30 people. In those 5 minutes you will get the following. 'On average' 10 polls, 'rage' and otherwise, 1/3 of the total kills of the top scorer. You will get 5 people whining that someone should be kicked. 90% of these polls are started for small things that I believe someone should not be kicked for. I Admin on three other online games. One is a MMORPG. There are strict rules to muting or banning someone informed to you before you get awarded the position and abusing this responsibility gets you banned. Two others I admin on are turn based games that are a lot less popular but never the less just as strict on its policing of 'Rule breaking'. Two Admin positions were offered because of my supportive activity towards other players and fair judgement, unbias etc. One I gained because I had a hand in the making, so I believe I am perseptive enough to spot abuse. The abuse I speak of is not aimed entirly at players but also mods. I have witnessed varying levels of tolerance from many different mods. Some use vulgar language, ohers do not and ban for it. Others have tolerated team kills, some kick for it, others have been banned for it. I do understand speaking from experiance expecially with a game like this that it is very hard to police a game like this with its multitude of possible sin but there are tings that can be done to make it easier.

One of those things is making it so if you cause damage to a team player you yourself will sustain the same damage in turn. If you kill a player, you die. Problem solved. The ability to use certain words can be restricted. The ability players have to Poll should be taken away while an administrator is in the room. People should NEVER be BANNED for reasons that another mod would only kick you for. There should be rules set in stone. Another example is I have seen a mod complain about a topless player and continue to kick them for it, yet every other mod I have seen has not. The reason I belive was because that person was seen as a leacher. Yet wearing a dress or tabard would have negligable change to that face. The spartans are a clan and are topless for understandable reasons. I myself have deliberatly killed another player on my team. I was standing still and was hit by them, I was moving and I was hit yet again. Now I am fully prepared to lose out on a game for that, but to be kicked or even banned for it is harsh. You cannot expect a game to grow with such fickle rules. I have introduced this game to my brothers and a score of like minded mates from work and since at least half have quit despite being addicted at a point because of the reasons I have stated here. Leaching is a simple thing to solve. One of the games I admin for has a system where if you are not moving and inactive for a period of time you are logged out. This is simple. So if you are leaching by definition you are stealing experiance you have not helped earned. So lets say you are leaching with a multiplier of x3, you will reconsider losing this if you KNOW you will be caught as a cold hard fact. You should be warned of the approaching kick 10 seconds before to let you know to get (A LOT) closer to action, this will solve the problem of a great big poll popping up on your screen, and further more prevent 20 people just hitting one or likewise two to get rid of it having not been made aware of the full facts thus giving birth to an inaccurate unfair poll. I sometimes answer texts I believe are important enough to stop gameplay for maybe 30 seconds max to answer and have been polled for it but I am by no means a leacher, yet some player with far to much power submitted a poll to have me kicked.

I think players should concentrate on playing, following SET rules that are not at the discretion of a mod entirly but progammed so there is no one that feels like they have been victimised to make a point or disappointed in sloppy governing. For the most part the admin in the game are good fair players but I can't help feeling EVERY game that this isn't about fighting but a game of Who can we poll or who can we get kicked or whine to a mod about. Why can't it be simple. Play, leave the admin to administrators and be secure in the fact that if someone is breaking the rules you do not need to step in. The height of a players power should be to bring awareness of a situation to a mod. Mods names on the scoreboard and when they speak should be highligted a different colour at all times so people know who to talk to should an infraction take place. I think if these things happen or are even considered the atmosphere would be a lot better and the game would grow.

Now I know it is a long post but I am interested to see if my views are shared. I am aware there are hundreds of posts relating to 'rule abuse' but I have tried to capsulate every aspect and offer, from experiance, ways to make things advance smoother.

  A very big thankyou for reading this (Only to those who actually read it and dint skim to the end)

[Kong Ming]

Hey Simon, I agree that the administration of the cRPG servers is inconsistent.  One issue, however, is that many of the admin tools you describe from other games (auto-kicking idles, auto-censoring language, etc.) are not available to mount&blade as far as I know since this would have to be developed by a third party that's interested in doing so and would involve a lot of coding.  There is also another issue that's a little difficult to describe.  Namely, the sense of server ownership in cRPG.  The often misunderstood relationship among chadz and other developers, server owners, admins, and players means it is often unclear what rules are set down by the server specifically, what rules are defined by cRPG in general, and what rules are simply being enforced by admins at the moment.  In other multiplayer games, each server usually has very specific ownership (often a clan) and the rules are clear and specific to that server.  cRPG doesn't really function this way even though we sometimes assume it does, since I believe most of us are used to this way of operating.  I'm not disagreeing at all, just trying to sum up a little of why I think some of these issues exist.

[Kung Fu Jesus]

Inconsistency of rules and enforcement is my biggest gripe with admins in general. I tend to agree with you, Simon. Too bad you'll probably get some stupid comments here  or the thread locked because those who have the authority don't care enough or don't have the time enough. Instead we get "Don't be a douche" as a rule. As if that clears it all up. In before inevitable thread shitting.

[jspook]

One of those things is making it so if you cause damage to a team player you yourself will sustain the same damage in turn. If you kill a player, you die. Problem solved.

I disagree completely with this.  I will state my reasons for you.

1.  I like to win.
     that being said, I am more than willing to take ff in a mele if the outcome is favorable.  even if it isnt favorable, I dont want to penalize a teammate and possibly lose the fight because he took damage from inadvertantly hitting me because I might have gotten in the way due to my own carelessness.

2.  There is no way to determine wether a player is careless, or if he is a team killer except through personal admin control and player responsibility.  Some in-game mechanics have to be endured or you will break the entire way the game is played.  a turtle on the the opposite team could just wade into a bunch of your team and have a higher chance of coming out alive and killing everyone because they cant risk hitting each other or they will do his work for him.  effecitvely nuetering the team that has more players per engagement.

3.  Having played many many many FPS games and ladders, IFF is an important part of team play.  MBW already attempts to address this issue by providing you with a nice flag above your teams head.  Most of the shooters I have laddered in dont even do this.  In ladders AND in pubs for these games, FF already serves to penalize your team because you have hurt/killed a friendly.  there is no need to give a further bonus the the opposing team for the ineptness of a team mate.

4.  archery.  I have been nailed in the back of the head while in a mele countless times by friendly archers and spearchuckers.  they are trying to do their jobs too.  I am quite certain they didnt intend to kill me and that I myself most likely moved into the path of the projectile after it was fired.  Why would any archer or crossbowman ever attempt to help a team mate if he stand the risk of killing both of you instantly.  I would rather take arrows in the back knowing that they are trying to help turn the tide, then have NO support at all.

5.  I hit team mates by accident at least once every time I play a seige map if I am defending.  if you were to penalize people for team damage, the offence would be able to scale the wall very quickly as the defenders eliminate themselves in an attempt to repel the guys from the ladders.

Team damage is neccessary
There will always be tk's with or without penalties.
without a penalty at least allows the admin to do his job, or the team to take care of it with minimal losses

[Sir_Simon_Jekyll]

JSpook you are 100% right on every point you made. I suppose the most prominent reason I approached the subject is I have been kicked for it because 'I should be more careful'. These incidents usually occured when I used my pole-arm and a player not battle aware moved in to steal the kill and took my hit. This happens too much. People seem to let frustration overwrite the fact that 99.9% of the time team damage is an accident because most people also want to win. But. Most people want to win with the most kills and as a rusult most people forget TEAM work and get greedy, I.E archers or cav. Perhaps if team damage stays mods should be a little more cautious before kick/banning for it. I have been kicked a lot of times for killing some moron or even a mod because they didn't see me swinging. I cannot look out the back of my head but they can see infront of them. So the person moving in the way is at fault.

[jspook]

I forgot about being mowed down by my own cav 

Punish them

Punish them all

[Delro]

Hi Sir_Simon_Jekyll,

While you make good points, you have to realize the sad truth that this is a very niche mod for a very niche game developed by a very small development team.

This is not World of Warcraft - the people who own and moderate servers are not paid to do so (outside of player donations made which go entirely toward keeping the servers running.) Server owners and their appointed admins (hereby referred to as Admins) have absolutely no obligation to police the game, nor do they have any reason to maintain any semblance of a uniform ruleset amongst themselves. The only way to achieve this would be for someone to have a higher authority over them, such as the publisher or developer of the game. As CRPG is a mod for a relatively small population game, as stated above, no such structure can exist.

Unfortunately, the tools just aren't there. What can you as a player do to combat the odd TK'er, poll spammer, griefer, abusive admin, or other issue that may arise whilst playing on the C-RPG server? Some suggestions below.

TK's, Poll Spamming, and General Griefing (Player Issues)

• Know your admins. There aren't many C-RPG servers out there. Odds are you have at least a couple favorited at this point. Get to know who runs your favorite servers, and find out what their name is on these forums.
  
  If you have issues on a server, send the admin a PM. Most, if not all server admins are very active on these forums, and will usually get back to you within 24 hours. At the very least, they will forward you on to the person you need to talk to.
• Report in game. If you notice a player doing something that you feel is wrong, like TKing, ladderpaulting, blocking doors with construction sites, poll spamming, etc, call it out in in-game chat! If an admin is on, they can issue a warning, kick a player, or further look into the issue using server logs. If no one is on, or you get no response, send a PM. Be sure to follow the below steps by taking screenshots and noting the time of the incident.
• Take screenshots, log the time of incidents, and forward the information through the correct channels. If someone is trolling in chat, try to inform an admin in game or through PM. Screenshots help a ton in the latter case to support your arguments. Do not edit these in any way! Also let the Admin know the approximate time of the incident. This makes it a lot easier for them to find the relevant space in the logs.
  
  Remember, Admins can always see chat logs. That means if you are feeding the trolls, they will know. Which brings us to the below;
• Don't feed the trolls! Make an effort not to inflame the issue by writing too much in chat. Do not take it upon yourself to poll or flame a griefer - simply inform the admins and wait for them to work their magic.
  
  If more people were kicked/banned in a calm and efficient manner (without chatlog drama, for instance,) less people would be inclined to troll and grief. Remember, sticks and stones may break my bones, but I've got Black Armor

Admin Issues

• Know your admins! See above. Know who ultimately is in charge of the server. If someone besides them is flaunting rules or abusing power, follow the above steps and screenshot, note the time, and PM the server owner. If the issue is not dealt with, know that you are at least contributing one report to what will soon become many if the admin continues to abuse.
• Play nice! Honestly, the more courteous and sportsman like you are, the more you will be treated with respect. If you unintentionally wound, TK, or otherwise mess up another player, type a simple "Sorry!" in chat the next time you have a spare 2 seconds out of combat (or are dead.) If you tend to have a lot of accidents, people will come to know you as a clumsy player and begin to avoid you until you improve. At least a quick apology will let other people know you are not trying to mess them up intentionally. They can get mad, but very rarely will you be kicked or banned for accidents if you make it clear it was an accident.
  
  If, however, you are a problem player, griefer, consistently trolling, etc, you will be noticed by admins. The best way to avoid this? Abstinence! ;D Be cool unto others, and they shall be cool unto you.
• Learn the server "house" rules This is a little tricky, as rules tend to differ depending on the server, player population, and admins who are on at the time. Luckily though, there aren't that many servers.
  
  Really get to know your favorite servers, and be observant! If you see an admin warn, kick or ban someone for doing something, remember not to do that in the future.
  
  If you have a question on whether something is allowed or not, ask an admin in chat. If they're there, they will answer you. If not, send a PM on these forums! There's a good chance that if you think something's questionable, it is, so don't do it. If it turns out it's OK, you can always do it later.
• Ban and Unban Forums There are threads (located at http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/board,5.0.html,) for every server where people can go to make ban and unban requests. If you feel you were unfiarly banned, for any reason, post here! Yes, it may take a while to get unbanned, and that sucks, but if you weren't doing anything wrong (for real) and have never caused issues in the past, you'll usually be unbanned within a day. If you have caused issues or the ban was warranted, then you will just have to wait in the penalty box! The admins clean the threads as the bans are lifted, so you'll at least not have to worry about being forgotten. Just be repentant and behave maturely, and soon enough you'll be allowed back in (I promise!)

Hope this helps! Remember, the best way to ensure everyone has an awesome experience is to admin yourself first; if everyone's exercising some sort of self-discipline, bans will become a thing of the past!
 

[Sir_Simon_Jekyll]

Thanks a lot guys, I didn't expect real thought out answers. I suppose the mistake I made was not realising the creator of the mod wasn't the rule maker. Then perhaps the people who run the servers could try harder.

[Delro]

Thanks a lot guys, I didn't expect real thought out answers. I suppose the mistake I made was not realising the creator of the mod wasn't the rule maker. Then perhaps the people who run the servers could try harder.

They certainly could, but why, when its so thankless? I for one say they are doing a magnificent job considering it is an entirely volunteer effort, not just to admin the servers but to pay for them in the first place.

You can help alleviate this a bit by making a small donation to your favorite server host - they'll certainly try harder if they don't have to worry about paying out of pocket for you to play!!

[Kung Fu Jesus]

Don't feed the trolls! Make an effort not to inflame the issue by writing too much in chat. Do not take it upon yourself to poll or flame a griefer - simply inform the admins and wait for them to work their magic.

I think this is a big one. One guy tks someone/bumps someone/kills horse, victim either starts a poll or revenge tks. Then it becomes a vicious cycle round after round of namecalling, spam polling, and general stupidity on both sides. TKing happens in every single round and most people understand that its a mistake. But one "wrong" tk and the above happens. Unfortunately, there are times when there are no admins or they don't make themselves known and nothing is done.

Simon, you said you have been kicked "a lot of times" for tking. I think you need to clarify this because I have been playing for several months almost every day, probably tk at least once per map, belong to a hated clan and I have never been kicked from a server.

[Delro]

I think this is a big one. One guy tks someone/bumps someone/kills horse, victim either starts a poll or revenge tks. Then it becomes a vicious cycle round after round of namecalling, spam polling, and general stupidity on both sides. TKing happens in every single round and most people understand that its a mistake. But one "wrong" tk and the above happens.

Absolutely right. And most server admins will not discriminate between an initial TK and a revenge wound/TK, either, so just don't do it! Report it and move on.

If they keep pestering you, and no admins are around, mention it in chat at the beginning of the next round (where everyone can hear you) and warn them before starting a votekick/ban. Odds are they'll get booted, or at least take the hint. If they still don't let up, PM an admin or try and find one on IRC. You'd be surprised how late some of these guys stay up Follow the steps of screenshotting and timelogging and odds are the next day that player will find himself posting in the Unban forum.

[Sir_Simon_Jekyll]

They certainly could, but why, when its so thankless? I for one say they are doing a magnificent job considering it is an entirely volunteer effort, not just to admin the servers but to pay for them in the first place.

If its thanksless and as a result they feel like they don't need to try harder why bother trying at all?  either do your best or don't do anything. Before I retired I used a Long Great Axe and a lot of teams kills come from people coming from pehind me trying to steal the kill I was going for and landing on my axe. This is unavoidable with the notice I'm usually given. The guy whos killed feels cheated out of a 'Nearly stolen' kill, starts a poll, people saw my name kill a team mate and just hit 1 to get the poll off the screen. Or. They run to a mod who then proceeds to kick me under the same assumption. I cannot avoid that, and nor will I, if your stupid and greedy enough to try and jump a finished enemy inches before my axe hits them then its your own dumb fault. Yet, this game just sees the black and white.

Absolutely right. And most server admins will not discriminate between an initial TK and a revenge wound/TK, either, so just don't do it! Report it and move on.

The assumed 'revenge kill' was from one particular BAN which is yet to be lifted which was from oneincident when I was more than likely banned for being too mouthy. I said, I would kill the guy again. The mod replied with. 'Pease do and I'll BAN you' I said 'Please do? your asking? Thats mature, they will let anyone be mods' and I was banned anyone. So long story short, I wasn't going to be banned unless I did it again, then I gave a bit of abuse at no ones understanding of the finer details of a far more complex situation than a 'revenge kill' and THEN I'm banned, makes me believe I was banned permanently for being mouthy to a mod that threatened me with a harsh punishment for saying I would do it again. I was banned to make a point to myself. Not for doing something worthy of a permenant ban. I didn't even do it again as I threatened. It was mere frustration mixed with an over-opinionated nature and sometimes lack of respect for authority figures. = Permenant Ban.... Misuse of power. Also, a seperate note, I have three people who use the same computer and all of them suffer as a result of what I did.

[nuffen]

Absolutely right. And most server admins will not discriminate between an initial TK and a revenge wound/TK, either, so just don't do it! Report it and move on.

If they keep pestering you, and no admins are around, mention it in chat at the beginning of the next round (where everyone can hear you) and warn them before starting a votekick/ban. Odds are they'll get booted, or at least take the hint. If they still don't let up, PM an admin or try and find one on IRC. You'd be surprised how late some of these guys stay up Follow the steps of screenshotting and timelogging and odds are the next day that player will find himself posting in the Unban forum.

Hi
I cant speak for all of us, but at least some of us accepts accidential TKs, like the example with the horsebump (ofc, we also draw a line here if its too bad), but intentinal TK is never ok. So in this way, the initial TKer goes free, and the revenger gets banned or gets a warning-kick (which sometimes means the person comes back to rage, and gets a ban in reward).

My advice would be not to revenge, but forgive accidents. Also ,your tip about joining IRC to get an admin is a very good tip, as thats the fastest way to get an admin on the server!

I said, I would kill the guy again. The mod replied with. 'Pease do and I'll BAN you' I said 'Please do? your asking? Thats mature, they will let anyone be mods' and I was banned anyone. So long story short, I wasn't going to be banned unless I did it again, then I gave a bit of abuse at no ones understanding of the finer details of a far more complex situation than a 'revenge kill' and THEN I'm banned, makes me believe I was banned permanently for being mouthy to a mod that threatened me with a harsh punishment for saying I would do it again. I was banned to make a point to myself. Not for doing something worthy of a permenant ban. I didn't even do it again as I threatened. It was mere frustration mixed with an over-opinionated nature and sometimes lack of respect for authority figures. = Permenant Ban.... Misuse of power. Also, a seperate note, I have three people who use the same computer and all of them suffer as a result of what I did.

I think that admin was me. I gave you a warning, giving you a chance instead of banning you. This, you arent even thanksful for, instead you express that you do not accept the rules about teamwounding and the warning from an admin. For this you were banned, and I cant see how banning people for refusing to follow the rules is a misuse of power.
If that is, then there should be no admins and no rules.. imagine!

Oh ye, I hope you apologised to those 3 for breaking the rules and therefore getting them banned from the server.

[Sir_Simon_Jekyll]

It was not a revege kill is my point, I was preserving my life as I was hit several times in quick succession, sometimes to the far left of the enemy I was fighting and standing still as the guy approached, and unless the guy was rediculously bad there is no way he could have done it so fast sevral times. I killed him so he did not kill me. That isn't revenge. That is self defence. I hand on heart have never killed someone for horse bumping or accidental team damage or team damage I could not know. The rules are not black and white, had you been in the same situation you would have kicked or banned the guy yourself. Yes I approached my point in an offensive manor, but the point was still there. I was disappointed with the 'Please do and I'll ban you' response which I deemed unprofessional given your station nd a response that would lose me those responsibilities in other games I have the same station. But if the situation came up again and I was fighting a decent player and a dedicated archer who near killed m when I stand far from the enemy in full plate I will kill him. Self defence kills have happened and mods have kicked/banned guys for doing what they did to me. I think its harsh, so I'll kill him and let him sit the round out. I didn't feel the need to have him kicked or banned for being an idiot/inconsiderate/extremly bad shot. That is all logical and straight forward. People get unbanned after doing a lot more than me and people get kicked for the same. Difference is I am at least honest. In my profession what you have done with your trusted post and power is use 'excessive force' which you would be reprimanded for. I am a goo player who plays fair and follows the rules, sometimes they are not so black and white and you of all people should know this. Other mods in other posts have made that exact point, no situation is so straight forward which makes your job hard.

Two of the friends that have accounts on this PC witnessed the event and are in my corner for the argument.

[Sir_Simon_Jekyll]

I think that admin was me. I gave you a warning, giving you a chance instead of banning you. This, you arent even thanksful for, instead you express that you do not accept the rules about teamwounding and the warning from an admin.

I would have been thankful for a warning. I said to someone else I would do it again if the exact same situation arrived. Not you. You didn't warn me. You threatened me. 'PLEASE DO'. As for not excepting the teamwounding rules, I did no such thing what so ever, because I DO except the rules. I was faced with a split second decision. I regret I had to kill him but it was him or me and I would rather him be dead for a round than kicked for stupidity. I was wearing full plate and he hit me enough times to take me to virtually nothing. No easy feet by a standard archer. If you had said 'If you do that again I will have to ban you' That is different. All I did was call you childish for the way you delivered your warning out of frustration no one seemed to care about the details, everyone just cries for blood, hence I started this thread, kick ban poll kick ban poll, no one just plays the game. The mob is a crowd baying for the blood of anyone. You should not ban a player for just being rude to you, I didn't use offensive language and people have said a lot worse and merely been muted. I was unfairly banned because you didn't like my attitude.