Author Topic: tactics at the beginning of a battle.  (Read 3198 times)

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Offline Torost

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tactics at the beginning of a battle.
« on: September 28, 2011, 02:38:12 am »
+3
Tactics in cRPG is fun , because in most aspects it is selforgansing,
created on the fly and often with little communication by all participants doing what they think is best.

The main tactic however often ends up becoming a variation of "CHARGE!" "GO LEFT!" "GO RIGHT!" towards the enemy spawn.
Depending on the scene the two main forces often keep running in circles until one side is halted or one catches up with the other.

The most active / fast melee usually dictates what happens by leading the way and like sheep all the rest follows,
learning from experience that they get slaughtered fast if they get caught by the enemies doing the same tactic.
The slower elements, either because of slow runningspeed or stopping to reload crossbow,
stops to release arrows often get harassed by enemy cav and skirmishers failing to keep up with the main force.
Thus losing alot of the forces potential since they die early in the battle.
The time you spend running is time that could have been spent hurting the enemy, helping/protecting teammates that are getting slaugterd behind you near spawn.
Flanking is effective when a smaller force leaves the main force to pressure weak spots, not by the entire army running on aflankingmission.

Let the cav that are truely mobile handle latespawners,AFKers,peasants,straggelers killing them does not swing the battle by much. It is only statpadding.
When the footsoldiers starts running the force gets divided and stretched out thin, weak.

At the start of the battle two issues are important, neutralizing enemy cav and securing some advantageous spots in the terrain to dictate how the battle will be fought.

Cav have the hardest time when the group move as one, with a mix of spearmen and ranged on the edges of the group.

If you manage to secure some advantageous spots, the ranged part of the force can then soften up the enemy before the infantry clash,
and even better if you can clash in a spot where ranged has some elevation, so they can overshoot friendly melee you have a great advantage.
If you give ranged some time to work, you will have an easier job later on.
Ranged cannot soften up the enemy if you rush mindlessly straight in to battle.

Why run to them , when they will run to you?

And as a bonus, it will feel more like a real battle, instead of a marathon!

Offline Turkhammer

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Re: tactics at the beginning of a battle.
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2011, 05:58:09 am »
0
All good stuff and I agree with you.  One problem is getting the mob to do it.  I don't think the mob really wants tactics.  I think it wants mindlessness.

Offline Huey Newton

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Re: tactics at the beginning of a battle.
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2011, 07:30:47 am »
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All good stuff and I agree with you.  One problem is getting the mob to do it.  I don't think the mob really wants tactics.  I think it wants mindlessness.
pretty much this

Organizing pubs to any degree is a difficult task.
And often i've seen people i've never heard of trying to organize a mostly clanless team.
They struggle to do so to say the least.

Alot of times pubs will only listen to either spammed commands from well known/ players who top the charts.
looks something like

LEFT
LEFT
LEFT
LEFT
LFTE
LEFT
L
FETL
FLET

we've all seen it
Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.
More of a crapshoot than anything

Offline Snoozer

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Re: tactics at the beginning of a battle.
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2011, 10:25:43 am »
0
instant gratification and punishment

^that is the one of the few (and maybe simplest)ways to organize a pub

they must see that the tactic works and of they derail it it is obvious why it did not work

how does this happen? if they die before you they HAVE to watch and if they see certain characters/clans be successful they will follow them instill that happens or if something makes that impossible (ex:first "plan" goes bad") u will have to repeat your successes

sometimes this all happens in game sometimes maybe if they play with you a couple of times they will know if you are good or not

i have organized simple plans sometimes there successful sometimes they fail(alot of my failures are on defense siege...)

simply put if you stay on the top of the charts and live the longest the more likely the pub will listen to you yell out simple plans like the GO LEFT AND BRAKE THE DOOR "plan"

but sometimes there r those who donot care or simply believe they are better then you so y should they listen?
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Offline Corwin

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Re: tactics at the beginning of a battle.
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2011, 10:38:18 am »
0
It is impossible to organize 50 random people in a matter of seconds. Most of what you can achieve is what Phazh is doing / LEFT/RIGHT command. And if he manages to get most of the team to move in the same direction, even that is usually enough.

Much more effective is organizing small fighting forces that can rule on battlefield, if properly lead. Some clans know how to do that, some don't. For example, I saw Byzantium making very nice rape trains with 15 clansmates just following Ujin, which resulted in series of x5 for their team.

Probably the best example for small unit tactics were my old friends/Bandits under Gnjus' leadership. Even when there were just 4 of us on server, we made difference, not because of individual skill, but because of good task division and coordinated work.
I would also mention Mercs, but I haven't seen more than 3-4 Mercs playing together on battle servers in months.

These days, being clanless, I like to team up with players I know. Even 2-3 players watching each others back is much better than playing solo unless you are Phyrex or some other player of that caliber.
I mean, what have you got to lose? You know, you come from nothing, you're going back to nothing, what have you lost? Nothing!

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Offline Polobow

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Re: tactics at the beginning of a battle.
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2011, 11:48:29 am »
0
It is impossible to organize 50 random people in a matter of seconds. Most of what you can achieve is what Phazh is doing / LEFT/RIGHT command. And if he manages to get most of the team to move in the same direction, even that is usually enough.

Much more effective is organizing small fighting forces that can rule on battlefield, if properly lead. Some clans know how to do that, some don't. For example, I saw Byzantium making very nice rape trains with 15 clansmates just following Ujin, which resulted in series of x5 for their team.

Probably the best example for small unit tactics were my old friends/Bandits under Gnjus' leadership. Even when there were just 4 of us on server, we made difference, not because of individual skill, but because of good task division and coordinated work.
I would also mention Mercs, but I haven't seen more than 3-4 Mercs playing together on battle servers in months.

These days, being clanless, I like to team up with players I know. Even 2-3 players watching each others back is much better than playing solo unless you are Phyrex or some other player of that caliber.

I agree with the last part! Whenever i get saved in battle by another teammate appearing, i most of the time stick to him for the whole match/round. I'll use alot more overheads and stabs, but it's usefull since you can help each other.

Offline Phazey

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Re: tactics at the beginning of a battle.
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2011, 12:08:15 pm »
0
Interesting post and i agree with most of what the OP says.

Getting a group of random players to follow a plan ain't easy. And what Corwin says is also true; teaming up in small subgroups can be really effective.

Things to try:

- participate in discussing a plan while dead (can't stress this enough, it's really important. confirm plans and repeat)

- after spawning, look around. make 'eye contact' with players you like to team with and salute them. stick with them.

- make a sub-batallion and say so to your team. for example, say in teamchat: "making melee group, bat 2. <insert basic plan here> follow the white flag"


I've noticed that the players that actually look around, make 'eye contact' after spawning and / or salute (block upwards or jiggle shield up and down) are the guys to team up with. The guys that run in a straight line towards the enemies without looking back once to see what the team does (grind / leech mode) are the least valuable.

So make it a habit to look around after spawning. You don't have to type, just use non-verbal communication. Don't be afraid to grab one of the battalion flags. Maybe say in chat what you are going to do (e.g.: bat 2, melee group flanking left).

About the use of caps and repeating commands: yeah, i know it sucks. I hate caps. But it works. So we live with it. I'll try not to repeat commands too much, but it's tempting to spam if you have 'em macro'd like me.  :rolleyes:


The OP also suggests that the best general strategy is to take an advantageous position and hold there (CAMP / HOLD). It's the easiest plan and often effective.
But: i've also noticed that camping will make people passive. Often, when camping, many players are inactive and lose their initiative and kind of hang back.

The other basic plan is the charge (be it left, right or just a straight-at-the-enemies-charge). The advantage here is: everyone is trying to get a kill. So every player is being 'dangerous' and is actively hunting enemies. No passivity. Ranged classes and people with low athletics often have a harder time, because they need to keep up with the rush and don't get to shoot much.
The gread advantage here is momentum. Enemy positions are generally easily surrounded and overwhelmed. The risk is splitting up. The longer the charge lasts, the more the team gets seperated. That is where the battalion flags come in: use the red batallion 1 flag to indicate a regroup point. Shout 'regroup at flag' in chat.
Alternating between short camps / regroups and charges seems to work best on most maps.

The key, i think, is doing both: first you group up (camp) on some advantageous position (hill), then you wait for the enemies to get close and you charge them before they get to disrupt your ranged classes. This ensures both good positions for ranged and the momentum advantage for melee.
The main problem here is deciding who calls the charge. Having only one leader is risky, because if he dies the rest of the team becomes passive and the camp-charge turns into a passive camp only. Don't be afraid to discuss who leads or to take the lead if there seems to be no leader.

The one class i haven't mentioned is cav. I've come to believe that letting the cav charge forward and hunt stragglers and afkers is a big waste. Too many cav gets lost to enemy ranged fire whilst chasing low value kills. Instead, i believe that cav is a support class.
Instead of charging ahead, the best cav can do is stick with the melee group and use their horse to block enemy cavalry or threaten enemy melee when they engage your infantry. That way, you prevent your cav from getting isolated and mobbed away from the main fight. Cav needs to be there at the 'big clash' to bump enemies and put pressure on their rear, forcing the enemy to face multiple directions and breaking their charge.

(The proof of this, for me, is that on most normal maps, like ruins, the most effective tactic by far is: "hold middle ruins, kill enemy cav" (or "hold gate, kill enemy cav" for the other team). Cav always charges in first, gets piked or shot and after that infantry and ranged can spread out and surround the enemies without getting picked off by cav.)

P.S. ages ago i wrote a guide on tactics. It's outdated, but if you haven't seen it, take a peek (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,27.0.html).

I like this thread. Keep it coming!
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 12:21:15 pm by Phazey »

Offline Varyag

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Re: tactics at the beginning of a battle.
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2011, 12:13:25 pm »
+1
WE WANT STRATEGUS!
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Offline Relit

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Re: tactics at the beginning of a battle.
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2011, 01:35:38 pm »
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NH had some fun doing shieldwall with spear support on the NA battle server last night. After the first round people started joining in and taking part of the wall without any prompting. Was pretty funny when the other side was forming their own shieldwall in response.

Sometimes it just takes a group of people going out there and leading by example before others catch on.

Offline Tristan

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Offline Teeth

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Re: tactics at the beginning of a battle.
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2011, 03:02:27 pm »
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Much more effective is organizing small fighting forces that can rule on battlefield, if properly lead. Some clans know how to do that, some don't. For example, I saw Byzantium making very nice rape trains with 15 clansmates just following Ujin, which resulted in series of x5 for their team.
More like 7, it's just that 7 Byzantiums count as a small army.

I must add that flags add a huge motivation to follow you for your teammates. Pubbies like following the shiny banner to victory. Yell follow the flag and a lot actually do.

Offline Ginosaji

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Re: tactics at the beginning of a battle.
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2011, 03:10:17 pm »
+1
I must add that flags add a huge motivation to follow you for your teammates. Pubbies like following the shiny banner to victory. Yell follow the flag and a lot actually do.

Since I lack a lot when it comes to battle awareness I really like following someone who gives me orders. I also press p every time I'm on a server just to find out if there's a flag up (if I don't find any clanmates or other people I know I can follow).

Offline Phazey

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Re: tactics at the beginning of a battle.
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2011, 03:55:00 pm »
0
Yep, the battalion flag system is very practical. Having a rallying point is great.

For those that like to grind a bit: it's easy and practical. Doesn't require any talking or organizing and makes basic teamplay easy.
For those that are really into tactics: they can participate in discussing the plan or even make their own battalion.

All in all a pretty good and underrated and underused system. We should promote it more and squeeze out some more fun team play out of crpg battle mode.  :D

Check out the 'Cult of Mithras' cross clan formation and tactics training tonight:
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,16561.0.html

Don't miss it! Gonna be fun!

Offline DKriza

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Re: tactics at the beginning of a battle.
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2011, 05:02:03 pm »
0


The one class i haven't mentioned is cav. I've come to believe that letting the cav charge forward and hunt stragglers and afkers is a big waste. Too many cav gets lost to enemy ranged fire whilst chasing low value kills. Instead, i believe that cav is a support class.
Instead of charging ahead, the best cav can do is stick with the melee group and use their horse to block enemy cavalry or threaten enemy melee when they engage your infantry. That way, you prevent your cav from getting isolated and mobbed away from the main fight. Cav needs to be there at the 'big clash' to bump enemies and put pressure on their rear, forcing the enemy to face multiple directions and breaking their charge.


i couldn't stop laughing  at this, i wish i could see only one of them doing this
cav players are the most immature players in this mod, and they are thinking only about them selves, and their hunger for easy kills
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Offline Corwin

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Re: tactics at the beginning of a battle.
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2011, 05:16:38 pm »
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More like 7, it's just that 7 Byzantiums count as a small army.

Yeah, tell that to Risen. It was day before yesterday and it was a city map? Are you sure there weren't more than 7?
I mean, what have you got to lose? You know, you come from nothing, you're going back to nothing, what have you lost? Nothing!

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