Author Topic: Best Ancient / Medieval Military History Movies: I'll start...  (Read 35980 times)

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Offline Christo

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Re: Best Ancient / Medieval Military History Movies: I'll start...
« Reply #195 on: February 10, 2012, 01:13:22 am »
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I remember watching three Korean series.
A bit of Drama mixed with military/political themes. They were alright.  :)

Sure, flashy unrealistic combat, but the historic storyline and some clever twists and characters made up for it.

Dae Jang Geum, is one of them. You see more things about the court, and intrigues in there, not that much fighting, or wars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dae_Jang_Geum

The second one I watched was a bit more about fighting, sure, not realistic fighting but who cares, I enjoyed it.

http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Queen_Seon_Deok

It's called, Queen Seon Deok. I don't know how accurate costumes, and background stuff are here. It was watchable, and enjoyable at most parts for me.

And, there is another series that I started watching, but never finished it. It has more of that intrigue/politics thing, combined with some "crime scene" stuff, old style. Trying to remember what the hell it's name was.
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Offline Dezilagel

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Re: Best Ancient / Medieval Military History Movies: I'll start...
« Reply #196 on: February 10, 2012, 08:05:46 am »
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@Joker

Why the f**k would anyone march an unshielded pike regiment into direct combat with another? It's just going to be a massive slaughter for both sides. Looked pretty alright up to that point though
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 08:06:54 am by Dezilagel »
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Re: Best Ancient / Medieval Military History Movies: I'll start...
« Reply #197 on: February 10, 2012, 09:12:09 am »
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What else could they have sent?

Cavalary? Pike'd! Fully armored dude? Bitch, please! Gun them down? No way a single volley or two would be enough to kill everyone before the first pike poke your underarmed and underarmored gunners!
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Offline Dezilagel

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Re: Best Ancient / Medieval Military History Movies: I'll start...
« Reply #198 on: February 10, 2012, 10:15:13 am »
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Battles weren't fought by robots, they were fought by humans. And even if a commander would be crazy enough to send pikes into pike vs. pike confrontations I doubt that anyone would fight that battle. One side would simply have to run away.

As said, those pikemen didn't have shields, they weren't equipped for pike vs. pike combat unlike for example the Macedonian phalanxes or the Greek hoplites.

If you'd want to counter pikes you'd probably just want to shoot them.

That-guy-whatever-his-name-is did a video on this, and it's basically him I'm referencing (coupled with some common sense) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbhANeJL_T4
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Best Ancient / Medieval Military History Movies: I'll start...
« Reply #199 on: February 10, 2012, 07:39:08 pm »
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In my Osprey books I found a passage which has probably to do with the question of pikes vs. pikes. Only problem: there are large quotations in old English, and I am no native speaker, so I have problems understanding everything. But I will mark what I THINK is relevant:

THE INFANTRY CONFRONTATION
Sir James Turner - who had fought in several - described an infantry
advance thus:

Your advance upon an Enemy, in what posture soever he be, should be
with a constant, firm and steady pace; the Musketeers (whether they
be on the Flanks or interlin'd with either the Horse or the Pikes) firing
all the while; but when you come within Pistol-shot [the term used
here as a measure of distance], you should double your pace, till your
Pikes closely serr'd together, charge these, whether Horse or Foot,
whom you find before them. It is true, the business very oft comes not
to push of Pike, but it hath and may come oft to it, and then Pikemen
are very serviceable.


Although Turner favoured a steady advance with musketeers firing as they
came (which would have required them to employ the practice of firing by
successive ranks), other commanders preferred the Swedish tactic of reserving
their fire until very close range, firing one or two massive volleys, and then
'falling on' opposing infantry while they were still reeling from the shock.
This reserving of fire could be employed both offensively and defensively.
A good contemporary description of Scottish infantry fighting in the
Swedish army at Breitenfeld was given by LtCol Muschamp to Dr William
Watts:

'First (saith he), giving fire unto three little Field-pieces that I had before
me, I suffered not my muskettiers to give their volleyes till I came within Pistollshot
of the enemy, at which time I gave order to the first [three] rancks to
discharge at once, and after them the other three: which done we fell pell mell
into their ranckes, knocking them downe with the stocke of the Musket and our
swords.' Sir James Turner - who was not present at this battle - wrote of the
use of the 'Salvee' (volley) that he thought that it was used 'when either the
business seems to be desparate, or that the Bodies are so near, that the Pikemen
are almost come to push of Pike, and then no other use can be made of the
Musquet but of the Butt-end of it'. Muschamp also described an occasion when
opposing pikemen were less enthusiastic to advance, and a 'brave commander
of theirs all in scarlet and gold lace there was right before us; whom we might
discerne to lay upon his own mens pates [heads] and shoulders; to cut and slash
divers* of them, with his sword, because they would not come upon us. This
gentleman maintained the fight a full houre, and more against us; but he being
slaine, wee might perceive their pikes and colours [flags] to topple downe, to
tumble and fall crosse one over another; whereupon all his men beginning to
flee, wee had the pursuit of them until the night parted us.'


Where the battalions in the first line of an army - or part of them - are
forced back, 'then the Reserve behind should be order'd immediately to
advance, and encounter the Victorious Enemy, who will hardly be able to
withstand that fresh charge, for it may be almost received as a Maxim, That
a Troop, Regiment or Brigade, how strong so-ever it be, which hath fought
with and beaten that Body of equal number that stood against it, may be easily
routed by a Troop, Regiment or Brigade that has not fought, though far
inferior in number. If any part of an Army get the Victory of those who stand
against it, he who commands that part ought to send some Troops in pursuit
of the routed Enemy, and with the rest fall on the flank of the Battallion which
stands next him, and yet keeps ground. The neglect of this duty lost the famous
General, Count Tili, the Battel of Leipsick [Breitenfeld-Leipzig].'


The first half of the first marked section seems to confirm the thoughts of the guy from your video, Dezilagel, but the second part/last sentence seems to say that it still happened like in my vid.

*Does he mean with "divers" those guys like in the video I posted above, who drop their pike, and quickly crawl underneath the enemy pikes to stab the enemy pikemen with their daggers or swords?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 07:40:21 pm by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
î saved for eternety (without context  :mrgreen:)

Offline Bobthehero

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Re: Best Ancient / Medieval Military History Movies: I'll start...
« Reply #200 on: February 11, 2012, 01:49:02 am »
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If you'd want to counter pikes you'd probably just want to shoot them.



With what? Short ranged guns that allows only for a volley until the pikemen charge you and overwhel the gunners?
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Offline Dezilagel

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Re: Best Ancient / Medieval Military History Movies: I'll start...
« Reply #201 on: February 11, 2012, 01:50:18 am »
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With what? Short ranged guns that allows only for a volley until the pikemen charge you and overwhel the gunners?

YES!

Muskets were completely useless, that's why noone really used them.

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Offline Bobthehero

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Re: Best Ancient / Medieval Military History Movies: I'll start...
« Reply #202 on: February 11, 2012, 01:54:23 am »
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They are using Arquebuse and they're busy shooting at the Dragoon.
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Offline Dezilagel

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Re: Best Ancient / Medieval Military History Movies: I'll start...
« Reply #203 on: February 11, 2012, 03:32:55 am »
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So you are saying that they brought firearms to shoot at other units using firearms but that they would get steamrolled by everything else?

(click to show/hide)

Big, tight blocks of pikemen must have been very vulnerable to concentrated fire.
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Re: Best Ancient / Medieval Military History Movies: I'll start...
« Reply #204 on: February 11, 2012, 07:16:56 am »
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Their gunners shoot at the riders.

Therefore they cannot concentrate fire on the pikemen.

Now if they could shoot, there's no way they'd actually kill enough of them before the pikemen would reach them, where they would get slaugthered.
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Offline Mosquito

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Re: Best Ancient / Medieval Military History Movies: I'll start...
« Reply #205 on: February 15, 2012, 01:37:21 am »
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I was personally sad that 300 existed. They were about to start making a HISTORICAL movie on Thermopylae. Based on a book I read a while ago, called Gates of Fire (Steven Pressfield). But they decided not to make it and went with 300 instead  :|

But yes, there is no need to look so in depth into a movie like that. Most people take it as face value, entertainment. They don't see anything else, and I'd personally rather look at it that way to. There is such a thing as over analysing something and I fear that is what's happening here.

I read that book too Overdriven, it paints a more balanced picture of Spartan life from an helot's PoV if i remember right?

300 was a joke, all about making the Spartans americanized. The Spartans weren't very nice, had a seriously brutal social system which , kept slaves,  and annually declared war on said slaves using their 'secret police'......hhhmm nice role models. I put it in the same folder as 'Team America world police' as a film, was entertaining though:)

Someone mentioned early in the thread another older Thermopylae film, i think it was called' Leonidas' or similar.

Ironclad was my choice too, i bought another film on the same day and i think it might have appeal for some of cRPGs Rus fans - Iron lord (about Yaroslav one of founders of Russia apparently) was hard for me to follow in subtitles since i didn't know the historical setting, some good scenes in it though.

Offline Captain_Georges

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Re: Best Ancient / Medieval Military History Movies: I'll start...
« Reply #206 on: February 15, 2012, 06:13:31 am »
+1
So you are saying that they brought firearms to shoot at other units using firearms but that they would get steamrolled by everything else?

Then what's the point of bringing firearms in the first place?

Big, tight blocks of pikemen must have been very vulnerable to concentrated fire.

Ladies and gents fierarms have been incorporated into many of the european armies for the same reason the crossbow was - it was even easier to use. Did you not notice how as european medieval history progresses through times, battles get bigger and bigger? The reason is fairly simple - an archer would train years to be proficient with a bow, months with a crossbow, and mere weeks with a musket. By the time of napoleonic wars, you would be given a gun, a uniform and if youre lucky, some training. It became a conflict of numbers and resources as well as strategy. So thats why the new age medieval armies are superior. Being a armored clad knight is all well and nice, but see how many of those you can pit against a ten times bigger ammount of levied pikemen/halberdiers. That is why the knights slowly died out. Train from age of 7 to get shot by a bullet. Only romantics believe in the superiority of the stereotypical medieval doctrine.
cRPG needs guns

Offline Christo

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Re: Best Ancient / Medieval Military History Movies: I'll start...
« Reply #207 on: February 15, 2012, 06:18:01 am »
+1
Only romantics believe in the superiority of the stereotypical medieval doctrine.

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Re: Best Ancient / Medieval Military History Movies: I'll start...
« Reply #208 on: February 15, 2012, 09:31:12 am »
-1
Ladies and gents fierarms have been incorporated into many of the european armies for the same reason the crossbow was - it was even easier to use. Did you not notice how as european medieval history progresses through times, battles get bigger and bigger? The reason is fairly simple - an archer would train years to be proficient with a bow, months with a crossbow, and mere weeks with a musket. By the time of napoleonic wars, you would be given a gun, a uniform and if youre lucky, some training. It became a conflict of numbers and resources as well as strategy. So thats why the new age medieval armies are superior. Being a armored clad knight is all well and nice, but see how many of those you can pit against a ten times bigger ammount of levied pikemen/halberdiers. That is why the knights slowly died out. Train from age of 7 to get shot by a bullet. Only romantics believe in the superiority of the stereotypical medieval doctrine.

Incidentaly the Nap' wars still had the odd cavalry charge, its not until Poles at the start of WW2 that it truely disapeared (and no they did not charged tanks, rather an entrenched position that recieved armored support after they were overwhelmed)

As for the pikemen and gunner thing, you're just thick and retarded if you can't see that the gunners here would get locked in melee way before they could inflict significant losses to the pikemen.

And guns were used around 1300, took 150-200 years till the knights truly started to fade away.
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Re: Best Ancient / Medieval Military History Movies: I'll start...
« Reply #209 on: February 15, 2012, 03:06:44 pm »
+1
A new Cinema Movie from turkey, calls
Fetih 1453

Play in the Time of the conqest of Konstantinopel , the stuff Looks expansiv Budget Movie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HoR9_VdAXc&feature=youtube_gdata_player