Internal shield balance

[UrLukur]

The internal balance of shield is not really good, there are few choices that actually stand a chance:

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weight 9
requirement 4
hit points 410
body armor 19

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weight 6.5
requirement 3
hit points 480
body armor 14
spd rtng 82

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weight 11
requirement 5
hit points 550
body armor 14
spd rtng 78

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weight 5.5
requirement 3
hit points 250
body armor 22
spd rtng 100
shield width 3

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weight 5.5
requirement 3
hit points 410
body armor 12
spd rtng 96

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weight 7
requirement 4
hit points 600
body armor 5
spd rtng 76

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weight 5.5
requirement 3
hit points 220
body armor 26
spd rtng 100

now consider overlooked ones:

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weight 5
requirement 3
hit points 225
body armor 23
spd rtng 100

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weight 7.5
requirement 3
hit points 310
body armor 18
spd rtng 87

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weight 6
requirement 3
hit points 380
body armor 14
spd rtng 80

The latter, which means most heraldic ones, are just not worth it.

Now considering the gameplay, disc shaped shields are better than inversed tear shaped shield, as they are wider so they protect more from sides (and shooting under and over is less common) they also serve better in melee.

Now consider hp/armor ratio. Consider the side sword wielded by person with 150 effective wpf and PS6. It deals about 58 damage without speed bonus. Consider the same with 2h weapon, lets say katana and dannish longsword. First with mirror setup (2h and Poles have generally better stats than 1h, but it's not really relevant here), they deal 66 and 73 respectively.

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armor_soak_factor_against_cut       = 0.8
armor_soak_factor_against_pierce    = 0.65
armor_soak_factor_against_blunt     = 0.5

armor_reduction_factor_against_cut       = 1.0
armor_reduction_factor_against_pierce    = 0.5
armor_reduction_factor_against_blunt     = 0.75

It means, that side sword deal 31 each time it strike so need 16 hits to break Norman Shield and 18 to break Heavy Board Shield, assuming he didn't hit with some hitbonus. Against Katana Norman last 14 and german need 12, board more. Now take high armor shield, 22 armor: Against Side Sword elite cavalry last 14 hits, against katana it's 12 hits and german chew through it with 10. Huscarl in such cases would last 16 against side sword, 14 against katana and 12 german (all aprox and considering shield low shield skill as high is not really useful those days). So high hitpoint shields are generally better than high armor shield even against weapons that are not intended to destroy shields, those shields also benefit more from high shield skill if i get the formula right (soak then reduction then shield skill), and fare better even against 1h weapons with no bonus to shield.

All things considering, buff shields with worse stats that have similar price. For example Kite shield is way worse than Norman shield, and Other cavalry shields are worse than elite and heather.

Also, make heirloom bonus percentage increase, not set increase.

[bruce]

Unless the armour rating is very high (buckler and steel), the "high armour" shields are easier to break using normal weapons compared to high HP shields; and even on the very high armour ones (buckler, steel), the shieldbreaking weapons (1h axes, 2h axes, polearms, throwing weapons) are more effective vs the high HP shields. Oh, and high armour shields are generally more expensive.

For instance, take the knightly heather shield:

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Price 4328
weight 5.5
hit points 220
body armor 26
spd rtng 100

and the knightly kite:

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Knightly Kite Shield   3614   
weight 5
requirement 3
hit points 225
body armor 23
spd rtng 100
shield width 23
shield height 39

vs the ordinary heather shield:

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Price 3156
weight 5.5
requirement 3
hit points 410
body armor 12
spd rtng 96

In practice, these two shields perform more or less the same, with the ordinary heather shield being slightly more durable (especially vs shieldbreakers) and slightly slower, while costing 1200 gold less.

If we want to see something really useless, look at this:
Plate Covered Round Shield   4156 gold

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weight 10
requirement 4
hit points 100
body armor 50
spd rtng 75
shield width 31

In practice, this is horrible. With 100 HP, you're not much more durable vs normal weapons then a eg norman shield is, while having less coverage, more weight, less speed and break in two hits from just about any shieldbreaking weapon (I twoshot it with throwing axes). And the luxury of having such a utterly crappy shield costs you 4156 gold, 1K gold more then a norman shield. Waste of a really pretty looking model.

And two useless heraldric shields:
Heavy Heater Shield   4346 gold   

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weight 7.5
requirement 3
hit points 305
body armor 19
spd rtng 87
shield width 22
shield height 50

Heavy Kite Shield   4080   

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weight 7.5
requirement 3
hit points 310
body armor 18
spd rtng 87
shield width 22
shield height 50

Now compare it to the norman shield:
Norman Shield   3226   

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weight 6.5
requirement 3
hit points 480
body armor 14
spd rtng 82
shield width 24
shield height 52

The norman is significantly cheaper, slightly more resilient, provides better coverage, slightly lighter - and it pays for it with having 5 less speed.

Anyway: what really bothers me is that the huscarl - which is not the highest tier shield, btw, but even if it was it'd still stand - is the defacto standard for a shielder, with the most durability bar a high shield skill steel shield vs a non-shieldbreaking weapon and the biggest coverage (protecting you from both projectiles and melee sideswings best).

[UrLukur]

I think i showed that they perform worse than shields with high hp.

Thinking about solution for this problem.

Knightly Kite have 3 less armor than Knightly Heather for 5 more hp. Solution could be increase health of Knightly Kite by some 10 or so.

Question is, how are shield balanced at the moment ?

[Sir_Ironlake]

I agree that round shields are far superior, especially since with a decent shield skill (4 or 5) a round shield covers up and down enough, so there is no actual advantage to using a high one.

[UrLukur]

I agree that round shields are far superior, especially since with a decent shield skill (4 or 5) a round shield covers up and down enough, so there is no actual advantage to using a high one.

It is, question is, how to compensate high shield for it ? Solution could be making high shield superior to round shield in terms of stats, now it's the other way.

[Gorath]

Speed.  That's how I would fix the shield balances.  You're right, Huscarl is the de-facto go to uber shield.  And why not?  In practice, while slower stat wise than other shields, it responds fast enough for everyone with a side sword/scimitar/pick to melee competently with along with the most cover and durability.  Sure alot of us die hard 1h fans will use another worse shield for looks (or the illusion of speed) but really the speed benefit isn't quite there.

An overall buff to the speeds of smaller/lighter/lesser tier shields (the heater line, the kite line, plate covered round shield) would give them a value as you'd be more of a melee threat than the typical huscarl/spammitar user.  How many speed points this would take, I'm not entirely sure as it's hard to measure the effect of shield speed points currently.  I suppose with a few of us testing we could figure out the benefit per point, but.....

Anyways, that's how I'd fix the internal balance.  I love using stuff other than the norm or cookie cutters, but frankly when people PM me or ask about my thoughts on shielder in general I can't really justify telling them anything but Huscarl + pick/spammitar/side sword as a general rule of thumb.

*Oh, as for buffing the non-round shields.  I would just give them more armor/hp to bring them up to more huscarl/board shield levels.  Not necessarily better, but on par.*

[MountedRhader]

I am a 2hand thrower hybrid and I agree with this. I used to be 1hand and it stank up until I purchased huscarl. Small shields could use a buff and large shields a de-buff (minor at most)

[Danath]

What is this topic actually about?

lol

If you have a crap shield you will die a lot quicker as 1h.

Yes higher HP > higher armor. It means the axe users have to work abit to break your shield. Axe damage bypasses armor from what I know. So your 60 armor steel shield with 5 hp's wont last long.

[UrLukur]

What is this topic actually about?

lol

If you have a crap shield you will die a lot quicker as 1h.

Yes higher HP > higher armor. It means the axe users have to work abit to break your shield. Axe damage bypasses armor from what I know. So your 60 armor steel shield with 5 hp's wont last long.

You know wrong. It's about internal balance of shields, as those are unbalanced atm, and will be balanced soon.

[Mala]

Unless the armour rating is very high (buckler and steel), ...


If we want to see something really useless, look at this:
Plate Covered Round Shield   4156 gold

(click to show/hide)

weight 10
requirement 4
hit points 100
body armor 50
spd rtng 75
shield width 31

In practice, this is horrible. With 100 HP, you're not much more durable vs normal weapons then a eg norman shield is, while having less coverage, more weight, less speed and break in two hits from just about any shieldbreaking weapon (I twoshot it with throwing axes). And the luxury of having such a utterly crappy shield costs you 4156 gold, 1K gold more then a norman shield. Waste of a really pretty looking model.

...

The buckler has become a fluff item, too.
It is expensive, quite tricky in melee and useless against ranged. Well, the later would be ok, but after the patch i catch a lot of body shots, which is covered by my little salad dish, unlike my head and feet.

[Sir_Ironlake]

The bucklers problem is the cost imho.

It does what it should be - only a way out of manual blocking. A "parry" shield. Not a "cover" shield. Thus different from the other shields - better at melee (faster, hard to break) but not useful against ranged (or slightly useful). As such its a melee fighting shield, but costs imho too much to use, as a cheaper shield will do comparably well.

[rustyspoon]

Speed.  That's how I would fix the shield balances. 

An overall buff to the speeds of smaller/lighter/lesser tier shields (the heater line, the kite line, plate covered round shield) would give them a value as you'd be more of a melee threat than the typical huscarl/spammitar user. 

TOTALLY agree. That is something that this mod has needed for a long time. It would be nice to have a reason to pick one shield over another other than looks. As it is currently, shield speed doesn't seem to make any difference at all.

[Mala]

The bucklers problem is the cost imho.

It does what it should be - only a way out of manual blocking. A "parry" shield. Not a "cover" shield. Thus different from the other shields - better at melee (faster, hard to break) but not useful against ranged (or slightly useful). As such its a melee fighting shield, but costs imho too much to use, as a cheaper shield will do comparably well.

And that is the problem. It is not that good in melee too (well it was before the patch). Now i can get hit from slighty off-center attacks, because they came in a bad angle.

[Sir_Ironlake]

I havent used it myself, so dont take what I say without consideration but...

Firstly I dont think it should be "as good" in blocking melee as others - a buckler should take more skill, it just removes the need to directional block but not "turtle" you - so a completly different thing then the big shields. I dont know though if it is too much so, or to "bad" to use.

On the other hand, not sure if that can be helped. If its size is increased, it will block arrows and be an "uber" shield. Without increasing size, attacks will bypass it.


So imho
Buckler
- should ease blocking in melee (but not in the same way a big shield should)
- should be practicaly unbreakable to non-axe weapons
- should break to axe weapons (and quickly at that, its not here to stop axes its to stop swords and pikes)
- shouldnt help against arrows (not much at least)

now once this is done, it is "unique" and then the price/skill req must be adjusted for its relative usefullness compared to other shields

[Tai Feng]

I am no shield expert but isn't width very important with new shield changes? And huscarl is so much wider that I just don't see any other shield competing. I'd say that internal shield balance is worse than any other internal balance, by far. All shields pretty much have the same width.