Author Topic: Archery. Some interesting Stuff. You dont care about.  (Read 1911 times)

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Offline Jinxits

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Archery. Some interesting Stuff. You dont care about.
« on: August 16, 2011, 06:14:06 am »
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At what speed does an arrow leaves an average longbow?



I searched the web :

 I have the followings:
 - between 66 and 100 m/s (206 and 310f/s)
 - record: 200 pounds strength, average 60-80 pounds nowadays (we are getting weaker!)

How powerful was a long bow?

One story told in medieval times was that an arrow fired from a long bow could penetrate four inches into oak. Recent tests have shown that this anecdote is true when the arrow is fired close up. From 200 metres, a longbow arrow penetrated over one inch of solid oak – more than sufficient power to penetrate the armour worn by soldiers. Plate armour gave more protection but could still be penetrated from 100 metres. The maximum range of a long bow was 400 metres but at this distance, it was far less effective.

Now. Argue your Points but the Bolded part just above states that the from 100 meters basically the longbow was deadly. In Crpg you Rarley see fights over 100 metres.


If you want alot of good Usefull info check out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow

also some interesting youtube links. All in reference to the longbow No modern bows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HagCuGXJgUs&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Xp56uVyxs&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4gPgHyaG1Q&feature=relmfu
Jinx

Offline Cyclopsided

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Re: Archery. Some interesting Stuff. You dont care about.
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2011, 06:57:23 am »
+1
Oh no, not this again.
Firstly, do you really understand what your second bolded text is saying?
Secondly, your links. Not much to be said there, uhm, except the second video is hilariously undermining to your position.
No joke, a piece of near-flat non-hardened steel (albeit slightly higher carbon content) is being shot from 10 meters repeatedly and practically everything bounces. Eventually a couple stick in so lightly they would have done nothing to the padding beneath...
I can't help but stress the lack of roundness of that armor. The amount of area an arrow with correct trajectory that can hit flatly on actual plate is very small. I giggled.


I'm not even going to rebuttal anything else. Not going to refer to draw weight, etc. Everyone else will gladly post about that.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 07:04:32 am by Marathon »
Also, I have declared myself #1 NA hybrid thrower
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As an NA admin, I am the most laid back and concerned with the ~fun of the game~ above all other factors. I've also been super inactive since Summer 2012. University takes most of my time, but I still find some time to play when i can.

Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: Archery. Some interesting Stuff. You dont care about.
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2011, 07:05:14 am »
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Can we remove Katanas and Longbows from the game?
I'm not normal and I don't pretend so, my approach is pretty much a bomb crescendo.
Death is a fun way to pass the time though, several little bullets moving in staccato.
The terror of my reign will live on in infamy, singing when they die like a dead man's symphony.

Offline Jinxits

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Re: Archery. Some interesting Stuff. You dont care about.
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2011, 07:07:23 am »
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I posted it didnt I? And Read the Topic? I really dont care about any of the information. I just thought some of the Archers might like it to back up their fight for archery. And Yes Longbows are way Underpowered. Oh and yes I do understand What I posted bold a second time Thanks.


Re: Archery. Some interesting Stuff. You dont care about.

Read the Subject next time. Just was bored after dinner. I thought some of you may like a Laugh. about the Videos and what not. Honestly I could Care less.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 07:09:57 am by Jinxits »
Jinx

Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: Archery. Some interesting Stuff. You dont care about.
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2011, 07:10:07 am »
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Despite the modern view that longbows had trouble penetrating high quality plate armour after about 1350, as late as 1415, the hail of arrows created by massed ranks of thousands of longbowmen helped to win the battle against plate armoured French knights at Agincourt. The French mounted charge against the English defensive position was ineffectual. The vast majority of the French knights advanced on foot, but exhausted by walking across wet muddy terrain in heavy armour and being buffeted by thousands of arrows, they were overwhelmed when the English longbowmen (using their swords and mauls) joined the hand-to-hand fighting in support of the English men-at-arms.

So basically the damn things are pathetic against anything higher then transitional armour...

More cool stuff from your own sources:
The range of the medieval weapon is unknown, with estimates from 165 to 228 m (180 to 249 yds). Modern longbows have a useful range up to 180 m (200 yd). A 667N(150 lbf) Mary Rose replica longbow was able to shoot a 53.6 g (1.9 oz) arrow 328 m (360 yd) and a 95.9 g (3.3 oz) a distance of 249.9 m (272 yd).[18] A flight arrow of a professional archer of Edward III's time would reach 400yds. It is also well known that no practice range was allowed to be less than 220yds by order of Henry VIII.[19]
The longbow had a long range and high accuracy, but not both at the same time. Most of the longer range shooting mentioned in stories was not marksmanship, but rather thousands of archers launching volleys of arrows at an entire army. Longbowmen armies would aim at an area and shoot a rain of arrows hitting indiscriminately at anyone in the area, a decidedly un-chivalrous but highly effective means of combat. An archer could hit a person at 165 m (180 yards) "part of the time" and could always hit an army.[citation needed]
Gerald of Wales commented on the power of the Welsh longbow in the 12th century:
... n the war against the Welsh, one of the men of arms was struck by an arrow shot at him by a Welshman. It went right through his thigh, high up, where it was protected inside and outside the leg by his iron cuirasses, and then through the skirt of his leather tunic; next it penetrated that part of the saddle which is called the alva or seat; and finally it lodged in his horse, driving so deep that it killed the animal.[20]
In a modern test, a direct hit from a steel bodkin point penetrated Damascus chain armour.[21][22]
However, even heavy draw longbows have trouble penetrating well made steel plate armour, which was used increasingly after 1350. A 2006 test was made by Matheus Bane using a 75 lbf (330 N) draw (at 28") bow, shooting at 10 yards; according to Bane's calculations, this would be approximately equivalent to a 110 lbf (490 N) bow at 250 yards.[23] Measured against a replica of the thinnest contemporary "Jack coat" armour, a 905 grain needle bodkin and a 935 grain curved broadhead penetrated over 3.5 inches (89 mm). ("Jack coat" armour could be up to twice as thick as the coat tested; in Bane's opinion such a thick coat would have stopped bodkin arrows but not the cutting force of broadhead arrows.) Against "high quality riveted maille", the needle bodkin and curved broadhead penetrated 2.8". Against a coat of plates, the needle bodkin achieved 0.3" penetration. The curved broadhead did not penetrate but caused 0.3" of deformation of the metal. Results against plate armour of "minimum thickness" (1.2mm) were similar to the coat of plates, in that the needle bodkin penetrated a small amount, the other arrows did not penetrate. In Bane's view, the plate armour would have kept out all the arrows if thicker or worn with more padding.

So according to this, longbows need a heavy nerf against the armour we have now in game, gotcha...

HEY FASADER! I need you for a second...
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 07:11:19 am by Tears_of_Destiny »
I'm not normal and I don't pretend so, my approach is pretty much a bomb crescendo.
Death is a fun way to pass the time though, several little bullets moving in staccato.
The terror of my reign will live on in infamy, singing when they die like a dead man's symphony.

Offline Jinxits

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Re: Archery. Some interesting Stuff. You dont care about.
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2011, 07:15:22 am »
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Yes yes if this was the longbow we had in game it would need a Heavy Nerf you would be right. But sadly we have a stick with a string called a longbow.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 07:16:28 am by Jinxits »
Jinx

Offline Paul

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Re: Archery. Some interesting Stuff. You dont care about.
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2011, 09:33:06 am »
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From my point of view 100m/s is absolute bullshit. I doubt that a wooden self bow like the longbow can achieve starting velocities like that - no matter how light the arrows are(and still able to fly). Composite bows or bows made out of modern materials are a different thing and can achieve high v0 with light arrows.

I liked these works:
http://www.currentmiddleages.org/artsci/docs/Champ_Bane_Archery-Testing.pdf
http://www.isegoria.net/2007/09/the-physics-of-medieval-archery/

« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 09:49:30 am by Paul »

Offline Okkam

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Re: Archery. Some interesting Stuff. You dont care about.
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2011, 10:22:10 am »
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Interesting

Paul, can you point me at some info about medieval crossbows?
Not those 5000lbs from Wiki, but real.

Offline Wookimonsta

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Re: Archery. Some interesting Stuff. You dont care about.
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2011, 10:23:46 am »
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shit, people still posting stuff like this?
Quote
[14:36] <@chadz> when you login there is a message "your life as horse archer was too depressing for you. you decided to commit suicide. please create a new char"
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<dexxtaa> I just saw nakey ladies and I left
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<@Fasader> dexxtaa is clearly gay

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Re: Archery. Some interesting Stuff. You dont care about.
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2011, 11:13:36 am »
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Yup Wooki, this is a cycle, next post will be about katana able to split iron bar in two...

Offline Arrowblood

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Re: Archery. Some interesting Stuff. You dont care about.
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2011, 11:39:11 am »
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my idea is:
Lets add some new types of arrows.
but one stack of arrows have only 4-6 arrows.
Thesse arrows should be called heavy war arrows or so.

Heavy War  Arrows
weapon length: 91
weight: 5

max ammo: 6
thrust damage: 10-13 pierce
slots: 1
UNLOOMABLE
price 30-40k

Offline Tomas

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Re: Archery. Some interesting Stuff. You dont care about.
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2011, 02:22:36 pm »
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Despite the modern view that longbows had trouble penetrating high quality plate armour after about 1350, as late as 1415, the hail of arrows created by massed ranks of thousands of longbowmen helped to win the battle against plate armoured French knights at Agincourt. The French mounted charge against the English defensive position was ineffectual. The vast majority of the French knights advanced on foot, but exhausted by walking across wet muddy terrain in heavy armour and being buffeted by thousands of arrows, they were overwhelmed when the English longbowmen (using their swords and mauls) joined the hand-to-hand fighting in support of the English men-at-arms.

So basically the damn things are pathetic against anything higher then transitional armour...

More cool stuff from your own sources:
The range of the medieval weapon is unknown, with estimates from 165 to 228 m (180 to 249 yds). Modern longbows have a useful range up to 180 m (200 yd). A 667N(150 lbf) Mary Rose replica longbow was able to shoot a 53.6 g (1.9 oz) arrow 328 m (360 yd) and a 95.9 g (3.3 oz) a distance of 249.9 m (272 yd).[18] A flight arrow of a professional archer of Edward III's time would reach 400yds. It is also well known that no practice range was allowed to be less than 220yds by order of Henry VIII.[19]
The longbow had a long range and high accuracy, but not both at the same time. Most of the longer range shooting mentioned in stories was not marksmanship, but rather thousands of archers launching volleys of arrows at an entire army. Longbowmen armies would aim at an area and shoot a rain of arrows hitting indiscriminately at anyone in the area, a decidedly un-chivalrous but highly effective means of combat. An archer could hit a person at 165 m (180 yards) "part of the time" and could always hit an army.[citation needed]
Gerald of Wales commented on the power of the Welsh longbow in the 12th century:
... n the war against the Welsh, one of the men of arms was struck by an arrow shot at him by a Welshman. It went right through his thigh, high up, where it was protected inside and outside the leg by his iron cuirasses, and then through the skirt of his leather tunic; next it penetrated that part of the saddle which is called the alva or seat; and finally it lodged in his horse, driving so deep that it killed the animal.[20]
In a modern test, a direct hit from a steel bodkin point penetrated Damascus chain armour.[21][22]
However, even heavy draw longbows have trouble penetrating well made steel plate armour, which was used increasingly after 1350. A 2006 test was made by Matheus Bane using a 75 lbf (330 N) draw (at 28") bow, shooting at 10 yards; according to Bane's calculations, this would be approximately equivalent to a 110 lbf (490 N) bow at 250 yards.[23] Measured against a replica of the thinnest contemporary "Jack coat" armour, a 905 grain needle bodkin and a 935 grain curved broadhead penetrated over 3.5 inches (89 mm). ("Jack coat" armour could be up to twice as thick as the coat tested; in Bane's opinion such a thick coat would have stopped bodkin arrows but not the cutting force of broadhead arrows.) Against "high quality riveted maille", the needle bodkin and curved broadhead penetrated 2.8". Against a coat of plates, the needle bodkin achieved 0.3" penetration. The curved broadhead did not penetrate but caused 0.3" of deformation of the metal. Results against plate armour of "minimum thickness" (1.2mm) were similar to the coat of plates, in that the needle bodkin penetrated a small amount, the other arrows did not penetrate. In Bane's view, the plate armour would have kept out all the arrows if thicker or worn with more padding.

So according to this, longbows need a heavy nerf against the armour we have now in game, gotcha...

HEY FASADER! I need you for a second...


Just a point that we should take Matheus Bane's findings with a pinch of salt.  He uses a 75lb bow at 10 yards and calcuates that this is the equivalent of a 110lb at 250 yards.  On his tests he fails to significantly penetrate thin (1.2mm) plate armour.  This is fine by me although i'd like to see his "calculation", but my point is "What would the 150lb Mary Rose bow have done at 10 yards?"

Offline ThePoopy

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Re: Archery. Some interesting Stuff. You dont care about.
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2011, 08:30:49 pm »
+1
Yup Wooki, this is a cycle, next post will be about katana able to split iron bar in two...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDkoj932YFo&feature=player_detailpage#t=373s


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Re: Archery. Some interesting Stuff. You dont care about.
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2011, 03:17:48 pm »
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Every time, if you state about realism, you get the balance argument
if you state about balance, you get the not realist argument.
Every time , it s the same 2 handed that complain, just buy a shield !
The facts are that, we dont know in wich time we re playing (supposed to be 15th), we dont know the metallurgy level of technology of Caldaria, plates were added as addon, exept ugly black armor. The fact that you hate being shot at, and that you dont want to nerf your own weapon. Also, we dont know the metal of the arrows, low grade iron or steel, that the arrow can still penetrate a joint or the visor. And if the plate knight WAS SO POWERFULL, why would they still use archers...
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