Intentional tk and trolls

[Oldsnake]

This topic started as a reply to murmillus case. But the old topic got locked so i decided it's time we discuss about trolls. Trolls that annoy people on all servers, get players to attack them, and get people banned.

I think murmillus is quite right in some aspects. He's an old player, playing since the begining. I've never seen him doing stupid things.
But i see trolls and intentional tks all the time. And they get away with it, like that guy achilles that trolled and tked for months without getting caught. And murmillus, an old player gets banned at first mistake.
An admin should take many things in consideration when banning someone: k/d ratio, if that is the first mistake, even observing that player for some time (and ban him after he tked 3 palyers for example), etc.
Murmillus did wrong, no doubt about that. He got banned by the book, no doubt about that. But is that the right choice? Direct ban? While trolls do what they like?

 I think almost everybody tks intentional at some point. If someone keeps attacking u, at some point it's normal to brake and kill him. We all do that. Remember some of the Greys, like tot_the_grey, smok_the grey, remember so many players that turn back on u in the middle of the battle and kill u for an unintentional hit.

And remember Melas and Toon. They have some fun occupation: kicking archers of the walls until that poor archer gets angry and draws melee weapon. At that point they kill the archer and qq about beeing attacked. Seen them doing that on a few occasions.

Personal advice: start using fraps.

I got pollbanned last night on siege server for something similar: Lord_halzor or something wounds some players on my team. He had some negative score, can't remember exactly how negative.
At some point he kills my horse with a spear. I ignore him and he stabs me in the back. Still ignoring him when an arrow kills him. Next life he's after me. Attacks my horse again, i just block when another teammate kills him. Next round he's again after me... i smash his shield but let him live. He backstabs me again and i kill him with one swing of my mighty axe. And he banpolls me, and an amazig ban hits me. Unfortunately i didn't have fraps installed but now i do.

Solutions?

[Siiem]

Get your own server, do whatever the fuck you want.

Solution.

[Vibe]

Solution:

Use fraps and make a ban thread
Don't revenge attack, ever

[Fartface]

dont even try to talk shit about melas and toon -_-

[Barbas]

An admin should take many things in consideration when banning someone:

I disagree; I think admins (moreso on the EU servers) are far too lenient, and this is why there's such a tremendous problem with intentional team-attacking - on siege at least, which I most always play.

No one seems to be afraid of being banned or even kicked for it, as this happens so very rarely despite the prevalence of intentional TAing.  There are of course kick/ban polls almost every minute, but most of them fail.  Probably in large part because there are so very many - I admit I almost automatically hit '2' just to get the stupid things off of my screen.  Really can't play the game and also listen to all the arguing about who did or did not do what.

I realize we can't always have an admin on.  And that is all the more reason for admins to be thoroughly ruthless in enforcing the rules.  If they can see that a player is intentionally attacking a teammate, it should be an immediate ban - even if only for a few hours.  Doesn't matter if someone else attacked them first or whatever else.  An admin can only punish those rulebreakers he sees.  If he lets himself get caught up in the whining and arguing, he will just miss the next five TAers and send the message that you can whine your way out of punishment. 

We don't need this compassionate, understanding justice for each and every case.  That's not going to make people in general behave.  We need the kind of swift, decisive enforcement that will actually make people afraid to break the rules.

[Kafein]

I admit I allways hit "1" when there's a kickpoll of two people I know nothing about. For bans I really need to have a reason though.


And concerning admin decisions, I think the ban should be a last resort. Kicks are enough as warnings for normal people that just were hot-tempered or harmless trolling (not kicking people off roofs etc.). But only real trolls should get banned, even for one hour.

Ruthless and immediate kicks, I have nothing against that. But banning without a kick warning before is just plain too much. As long as the punished player doesn't retaliate, the admin job is done. So a kick is enough in 99% of the time.

[nuffen]

But i see trolls and intentional tks all the time. And they get away with it, like that guy achilles that trolled and tked for months without getting caught.

Never heard about him. If he did as you say, someone should have pressed i to inform an admin, or even jumped on IRC to ask an admin to clean up. It takes 5 minutes, and if you cant be bothered to do even that, it cant be such a problem.

An admin should take many things in consideration when banning someone: k/d ratio, if that is the first mistake, even observing that player for some time (and ban him after he tked 3 palyers for example), etc.

Your post is in response to me actually observing a player for some time, giving him several warnings while watching him attack a teammate over and over.

Murmillus did wrong, no doubt about that. He got banned by the book, no doubt about that. But is that the right choice? Direct ban? While trolls do what they like?

Then start reporting the trolls. All it takes is pressing i and write a short sentence. And no, we cant tell you that we will observe him, because then he will behave good (if he is a troll that is).

And remember Melas and Toon. They have some fun occupation: kicking archers of the walls until that poor archer gets angry and draws melee weapon. At that point they kill the archer and qq about beeing attacked. Seen them doing that on a few occasions.

Pressing i is a lot easier, and will get the griefer banned instead of you.

Personal advice: start using fraps.

Thats a good advice, but be sure you contact an admin first.

I got pollbanned last night on siege server for something similar: Lord_halzor or something wounds some players on my team. He had some negative score, can't remember exactly how negative.

At some point he kills my horse with a spear. I ignore him and he stabs me in the back. Still ignoring him when an arrow kills him. Next life he's after me. Attacks my horse again, i just block when another teammate kills him. Next round he's again after me... i smash his shield but let him live. He backstabs me again and i kill him with one swing of my mighty axe. And he banpolls me, and an amazig ban hits me. Unfortunately i didn't have fraps installed but now i do.

I was on IRC at that moment, I never saw anyone asking an admin to join the server and fix the mess.

[Osiris]

what the hell does KDR have to do with bans? so your saying if you have a good kdr you should be punished less?

[Murmillus_Prime]

what the hell does KDR have to do with bans? so your saying if you have a good kdr you should be punished less?

He's simply pointing out that a  K/D ratio is sometimes a good indicator of the players intent, whether they have -3 to 7 or 13 to 1, ect.

There's no suggestion people should be punished less at all, only that if punished the punishment  should be in proportion to the offence.

[Joxer]

If someone tries to TK me I will defend myself. You dont know how many other victims there might be after you if you just sit back and fraps.

[Murmillus_Prime]

If someone tries to TK me I will defend myself. You dont know how many other victims there might be after you if you just sit back and fraps.

Then if you are being watched by Nuffen you'd be banned immediately like myself, yet you're against oldsnakes post?..

[Barbas]

Ruthless and immediate kicks, I have nothing against that. But banning without a kick warning before is just plain too much. As long as the punished player doesn't retaliate, the admin job is done. So a kick is enough in 99% of the time.

Why?  Is 'You can't play on this particular server for one hour' some extreme measure?  (Frankly, a player who feels that way could probably use the hour break.)

The first goal of admins  to protect the rule-abiding players from bad apples, not to gently coax each hot-headed individual player to follow the rules in the most gentle possible way.

Anyway, what's more likely to dissuade a player from intentional team-attacking:  'Oh no, I might have to reconnect if an admin catches and kicks me!' or 'I might be banned for an hour'?  It's like drunk driving.  When someone gets caught, it's quite unlikely it was their first time doing it.  If you punish on the assumption that the only time they've ever done it just happens to be this time they've been caught, the consequences aren't strong enough to serve as a deterrent.  "Oh dear, about one out of ten times that I intentionally team-attack, an admin will see me and I'll get kicked??  Lol whatever."

But maybe more importantly, like I said before:  If the admin just immediately bans a player they see intentionally team-attacking, then they can get right back to watching everyone else.  If they take the time to listen to a bunch of whine stories about 'who started it', they're probably going to miss the next person doing it.

[Murmillus_Prime]

Why?  Is 'You can't play on this particular server for one hour' some extreme measure?  (Frankly, a player who feels that way could probably use the hour break.)

The first goal of admins  to protect the rule-abiding players from bad apples, not to gently coax each hot-headed individual player to follow the rules in the most gentle possible way.

Anyway, what's more likely to dissuade a player from intentional team-attacking:  'Oh no, I might have to reconnect if an admin catches and kicks me!' or 'I might be banned for an hour'?  It's like drunk driving.  When someone gets caught, it's quite unlikely it was their first time doing it.  If you punish on the assumption that the only time they've ever done it just happens to be this time they've been caught, the consequences aren't strong enough to serve as a deterrent.  "Oh dear, about one out of ten times that I intentionally team-attack, an admin will see me and I'll get kicked??  Lol whatever."

But maybe more importantly, like I said before:  If the admin just immediately bans a player they see intentionally team-attacking, then they can get right back to watching everyone else.  If they take the time to listen to a bunch of whine stories about 'who started it', they're probably going to miss the next person doing it.

In your example given, about drunk drivers, most repeat offenders are alcoholics, they have a problem with abusing the substance to such a point they're willing to put peoples lives at risk, now to shrink it back into this mod, a similar situation where you're handed a player who joins the server with the pure intent of causing discord and offences via team-attacking or team-killing with clear intent would be your alcoholic, now since I'm neither, and from nuffens own mouth, he had no prior knowledge of myself and claimed had never known of me before in order to disrepute my accusations of a grudge being used to cloud his judgement when he banned me, then he has no prior basis on which to justify a straight out ban.

The guy Nuffen was watching however, whom I already alerted everyone to, concerning being team-killed with intention by the individual whom I highlighted as a problem gave prior indication to justify a straight out short ban from the action of team-killing with intent yet, the first instances of my offences were watched by nuffen, in the middle of fighting the person who I had already indicated committed severe offences, and since he then attacked me first the second round while nuffen was watching, in the knowledge that he had already been called out for team-killing already, nuffen waited until I was in a position to which he could justify an excuse to press the ban button on me instead of assessing the situation in a fair manner, punishing the team-killing, team-wounding player with a short ban, and punishing me with a kick, because all I did in the end of the day was a retaliated team-attack and had not even managed to kill him, which I never wanted to do, but was forced to do when he put me in a position where I could not block a feint-spamming 1h.

[Tears of Destiny]

I like how people are discussing this like it will change anything about the rules or how we enforce them.

Cool story, would read again.

[Murmillus_Prime]

I like how people are discussing this like it will change anything about the rules or how we enforce them.

Cool story, would read again.

This is what it boils down to when you've run out of rational argument, light trolling. Yet you're an admin, showing everyone it's ok to wind up other players, other members of this community for lulz to lure them into a trap in which they can be incriminated, sure is a great example you're setting this community.