Author Topic: Agincourt  (Read 89490 times)

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Offline Matey

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Re: Agincourt
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2011, 02:40:51 am »
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yeah i wonder what kind of quality plate most of the guys had too; also dont forget there are weak points for any suit of armour, often visors and the like and archers were pretty scary accurate; with that many arrows flying around, yeah even if they dont punch through the chest piece theres a lot of guys with arrows through their eyes.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 02:41:52 am by Matey »

Offline Bobthehero

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Re: Agincourt
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2011, 06:17:30 am »
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I doubt it, the arrow were fired en masse in an arc patern, unless the knight were looking upward no arrow could get in their visor.
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Offline Roran Hawkins

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Re: Agincourt
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2011, 09:43:05 am »
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You forget the effect of morale and the wounded men.

They are wrestling through a mudfield, say like almost kneedeep. Then it sarts raining arrows from the biggest calibre bow in their known world. The skies turn pitch black, the French knights suddenly bathe in shadows, and see let's say 700 arrows decending at them. The ones not rich enough to have plate armour start to panick, scaring the others. Even the platearmours can get pierced on the weaker spots, and getting hurt isn't fun either, especially with all the mud, when you fall, you get trampeld and will drown in the mud.

I think almost not all of the Frenchmen really died from arrows. (apart from battle kills when they reached english lines) I think wounded Frenchmen who got shot just fell in the mud, grabbing the arrow that suddenly appeared inside their leg, and fall in the pool of mud. They can get trampled by their mates, and shot again. But they will drown idf they stay lying there.

Offline FICO

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Re: Agincourt
« Reply #48 on: February 05, 2011, 10:49:05 am »
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as stated above, moral of troupes had BIG influence on battle. most of those horrific numbers of people died in battle were of noteworthy people. peasants often were not counted correctly (or at all) and most killing happened during routing or retreat
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Offline Pecores_Roland_Culet

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Re: Agincourt
« Reply #49 on: February 05, 2011, 11:08:49 am »
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zp9izmeUl9s

We can't made a real pack like the begin of this video. Thats a problem for me.
We can't walk or sprint and we are never tired.
To made historical think we need an realistic gameplay first...
We need 3 different speed and a fatigue jauge.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 11:18:52 am by Pecores_Roland_Culet »

Offline Matey

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Re: Agincourt
« Reply #50 on: February 05, 2011, 11:14:14 am »
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you can always read the book by bernard cornwell, he does research pretty good. i liked his version. french fuck up, mud, arrows, wooden stakes, and beefy fuckin archers with angry melee weps.

Offline Neostralie

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Re: Agincourt
« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2011, 11:00:16 pm »
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Why don't we play the battle on cRPG?

15 000 tickets with Horses, Churburg, grealances, and other stuff like this vs 7 000 tickets with longbows and battle fork.

Offline FICO

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Re: Agincourt
« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2011, 11:48:41 pm »
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Why don't we play the battle on cRPG?

15 000 tickets with Horses, Churburg, grealances, and other stuff like this vs 7 000 tickets with longbows and battle fork.
because it is game. battle is no game.
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Offline woody

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Re: Agincourt
« Reply #53 on: February 07, 2011, 09:43:03 pm »
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Morale affected every battle - usually Battlefield casuality figures in battle for this period were 10-15% for losers and less than 5% for winners. this was mainly due to as soon as one side started losing they ran.

Agincourt was very unusual for so many deaths, Juliet Barker in her excellent book Agincourt (best I've read on the subject), details how the casualties amoungst the French nobles were incredibly high.

Part of what is unusual is that although the merc x bowman broke the astonishing bravery of the french knights, aided by poor communications between the cavalry waves, meant many were killed by bows and hand and hand.

The other effect of arrows even at range is bludgeon like blows, which under the volumes fired by the English (Welsh) could actually stun as well as demoralise.

Bottom line - take away Longbows French win.

Offline ManOfWar

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Re: Agincourt
« Reply #54 on: February 10, 2011, 03:18:30 am »
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Americaaaaa!! o wait wrong thread

But yes the longbow is what won the day
Just a soldier

Offline bruce

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Re: Agincourt
« Reply #55 on: February 10, 2011, 03:58:07 pm »
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According to some sources, by the time the French footmen reached English lines (the cavalry attack was of course a utter debacle) - they could barely swing their weapons from exhaustion. Perhaps the biggest effect of archery on armoured people was that they had to advance with visor down, trudging uphill through mud - visor down severely inhibits your breathing (which is why you generally put your visor up during melee). Of course, archers protected with wooden palings and firing from 3 sides prevented a direct cavarly assault.

Furthermore, they were too crowded - numbers don't help when all you get is people crowding you from behind (countless melee battles from ancient times to now, from Marathon, Cannae, etc have demonstrated this concept quite well) - the narrow field of battle prevented the French from using their numbers to outflank and overwhelm the enemy. Finally, the charge of the british archers vs their exposed flanks (they managed to push the english men at arms back somewhat) destroyed the french, which found themselves exhausted, huddled together and semi-encircled.

If you look how the battle unfolded, it was a classic move, the earliest recorded one about 1800 years old at the time of Agincourt: the enemy attacks the center, the forces holding the center fall back, then your flanks charge the now overextended and semi-encircled enemy. For bonus points deploy cavalry to cut off routing enemies, if it's possible / you have any available.

What really won the fight is English picking the ideal position and the French impetuously and foolishly attacking it, which is a recurring theme through that war. The English catastrophic defeats (like, eg. Patay) were also generally those where the opposite held true, longbowmen or not.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 06:00:56 pm by bruce »
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Offline Janis_Corp

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Re: Agincourt
« Reply #56 on: February 10, 2011, 06:22:06 pm »
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although i dont like english ,but they got a discipline professional army in this time.

The battle of crecy

The france lose the battle because their knights were too proud and arrogant beacause is sheared a dirt of the discussed Battle Procedure,and attack when the wanted.

so they ran on the genuas Xbowmen, after than their horses killed from the arrows ,after that they had to continue on foot,and in the mud could the British knight give them the rest
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 06:32:21 pm by Janis_Corp »

Offline Alex_C

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Re: Agincourt
« Reply #57 on: February 10, 2011, 07:00:27 pm »
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Agincourt was the one with the trenches and the machine-guns right?

Offline FICO

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Re: Agincourt
« Reply #58 on: February 10, 2011, 07:26:05 pm »
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(click to show/hide)
when you watch movies you see people who are shot to jerk back from bullet impact (irl that doesn't happen), but with arrows that happens. imagine you running between two lines of people and everybody throws a little punch at your armor. annoying and exhausting

i think that lowered visor was no problem,
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Offline bruce

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Re: Agincourt
« Reply #59 on: February 10, 2011, 08:05:59 pm »
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when you watch movies you see people who are shot to jerk back from bullet impact (irl that doesn't happen), but with arrows that happens. imagine you running between two lines of people and everybody throws a little punch at your armor. annoying and exhausting

Yeah. Well, the crossfire only happened when they met the English line and pushed the main segment back, basically presenting the English with a lovely envelopment situation. I mean, yes, arrows were effective at fatiguing them, especially in combination with terrain, but they lost to one of the oldest strategies since the beginning of written history.
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