Author Topic: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme  (Read 7030 times)

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Offline Keshian

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+2
"Projectile's speed will be lowered by 31%. Longbow arrows has 55 projectile speed, will have 38 after patch."

"The problem is none of you has an idea what those numbers mean ingame.

Aww, whatever. Longbow will have a "real" shoot speed with minimum PD(6) of 60 m/s. A destrier with riding 4 has a "real" top speed of 9 to 10 m/s. Those are both pretty realistic values compared to the real world."

First off, the destrier is the wrong horse to compare it to, as 90% of cav use courser or arabians and usually minimum 5 riding (would be like using the nomad bow's shoot speed for comparison, not the fastest shoot speed of all bows - longbow), so that would be closer to 20 m/s in your example, which is not realistic that ahorse moves 1/3rd the speed of a longbow arrow.  Secondly, a developer trying to use "real world" examples in a game balance discussion is a really bad sign as the real world is never balanced, but games are fun because they are balanced.

Archers are still one of the weakest classes out there with all their nerfs.  They die really easily, most archers' arrows are really easy to dodge, and they take 10-12 arrows (half a quiver) to kill these tincan strength builds that are proliferating unless they use the very slow longbow, which makes them easy to kill before they redraw their bow back.  The only time I ever see archers being effective at all is if they are the best archers out there, very good at melee and so they get a bunch of kills in melee, or run in a large pack of other archers (who can all be easily killed by just 4-5 lancers in 10 seconds with a bunch of 1 shot kills if the cav is organized like the archers are.  I know plenty of fast shielders and lancers who love how easy it is to rack up kills by going after archers, because they are so easy to kill.  I know I find them the easiest to go after when I fight just as a 2hander as the current already lowered shoot speed makes arrows really easy to dodge if youa re aware of who is shooting at you.

End result of such a change:  More tincan strength spammers in mob melee and cav lancers - both classes that can 1-shot people fairly easily.  Archers' arrows will be dodgable by all but the most stupid tincan and even they hit they do 1/50th of your health unless theya re within 20 feet of you, which means 1 arrows hit before they get 1-hit killed.  Still don't get how strong bow and warbow users can at all seem overpowered, though I do see a lot of tin can pure strength builds complaining because longbow fianlly allows some weapon to actually hurt and kill them other than cav lancers and other tincan bec users (usually a good half-dozen or more on any given server at any given time, and thats just the bec users, not talking about danish greatsword users).
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 06:21:02 pm by Keshian »
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Offline Team_Jacob

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Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2011, 06:29:38 pm »
-2
Confirmation that the item balancing team has down syndrome and/or are melee biased. Good thing I have my 2h/tincan and cav alts to play because all ranged is pretty useless.

Offline Paul

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Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2011, 06:33:08 pm »
+2
We are high on chromosomes. No shot speed nerf for xbows though.

Offline Shablagoo

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Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2011, 06:45:28 pm »
+2
http://nacrpg.net/serverStats.php?order=KDR&search=no&mode=all&region=NA&page=1

Not a single archer on that list.  Maybe 2 shielders.  Everyone else is 2h or polearm.   I'm sure the EU servers are no different.  Logical response?  NERF RANGED! 

I really don't get it.  Pretty soon the only viable ranged weapon will be the pike. 


Offline Keshian

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Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2011, 07:00:36 pm »
+2
http://nacrpg.net/serverStats.php?order=KDR&search=no&mode=all&region=NA&page=1

Not a single archer on that list.  Maybe 2 shielders.  Everyone else is 2h or polearm.   I'm sure the EU servers are no different.  Logical response?  NERF RANGED! 

I really don't get it.  Pretty soon the only viable ranged weapon will be the pike.
Using the battle stats:
There are 2 HORSE archers between 25-50, because its much easier to avoid dying as a horse archer, which boosts your k/d ratio by keeping deaths to a minimum.  Damatacus, Fallen_Loki, and I are in 50-75 range, but I know both Damatacus and I get a lot of kills from melee, so the first true foot archer is Fallen_Loki in 75th place.  Thats 74 people doing 2hander/polearm/lancing/xbow/throwing before you get to even 1 archer.  How the hell is that overpowered.

So, xbows currently outrange archers in long range accuracy, while being able to wear heavy armor, so you need to reduce shoot speed of bows so they can glance or do 1/50th of an xbowman's health with his good armor because of the extremely low shoot speed (a strong bow will then have only half again the shoot speed of a thrown shuriken), while they still 1-2 shot you in your weak archer armor.  And by the way realism argument: bows using tensile strength should not have barely above the shoot speed of a thrown throwing star, that is completely unrealistic if you are going to argue realsim.
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Offline Bonze

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Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2011, 07:06:29 pm »
-10
Got no Balls? Play archer. Got no sex? Play horse archer.

Offline Bramd

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Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2011, 07:07:23 pm »
+1
Using the battle stats:
There are 2 HORSE archers between 25-50, because its much easier to avoid dying as a horse archer, which boosts your k/d ratio by keeping deaths to a minimum.  Damatacus, Fallen_Loki, and I are in 50-75 range, but I know both Damatacus and I get a lot of kills from melee, so the first true foot archer is Fallen_Loki in 75th place.  Thats 74 people doing 2hander/polearm/lancing/xbow/throwing before you get to even 1 archer.  How the hell is that overpowered.

So, xbows currently outrange archers in long range accuracy, while being able to wear heavy armor, so you need to reduce shoot speed of bows so they can glance or do 1/50th of an xbowman's health with his good armor because of the extremely low shoot speed (a strong bow will then have only half again the shoot speed of a thrown shuriken), while they still 1-2 shot you in your weak archer armor.  And by the way realism argument: bows using tensile strength should not have barely above the shoot speed of a thrown throwing star, that is completely unrealistic if you are going to argue realsim.

I think Paul must have been trolling...  I can't imagine they're actually going to do this.  It would make archers completely ineffectual.  Just, gone.


Offline MadJackMcMad

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Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2011, 07:08:24 pm »
+2
We are high on chromosomes. No shot speed nerf for xbows though.

Heart attack averted, but still this sounds utterly bonkers.
ABSURDITY, n. A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion.

Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2011, 07:11:23 pm »
+1
Hey, relax guys, we just gotta arch all of our shots to the moon to shoot any real distance, and that will be easy to shoot cav down with! Horse Archer hunting will be a breeze!

I am so glad I am going 9PD with my next build. I look forward to seeing just how much chaos I can create with the new arcing shots.

Good news is that indirect fire will be viable though, lulz. Medieval Mortar teams here we go!
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Offline BlackMilk

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Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2011, 07:11:39 pm »
-1
successfull troll is successfull...

Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2011, 07:12:59 pm »
+1
successfull troll is successfull...

Only time will tell of how the new patch will work. *shrugs*
Regardless, my Main will be an Archer till the day I die, regardless of any buffs or nerfs, and I shall use the Warbow until I die too...
I'm not normal and I don't pretend so, my approach is pretty much a bomb crescendo.
Death is a fun way to pass the time though, several little bullets moving in staccato.
The terror of my reign will live on in infamy, singing when they die like a dead man's symphony.

Offline EponiCo

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Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2011, 07:22:03 pm »
+1
"The problem is none of you has an idea what those numbers mean ingame.

Go to your modules folder and into native. Open item_kinds1.txt
Find this line

 itm_long_bow Long_Bow Long_Bow 2  long_bow 0  long_bow_carry 3458764513820540928  6357000 5905584128 145 655370 1.750000 100 0 0 0 3 0 79 56 0 0 278 0

Change it

 itm_long_bow Long_Bow Long_Bow 2  long_bow 0  long_bow_carry 3458764513820540928  6357000 5905584128 145 655370 1.750000 100 0 0 0 3 0 79 38 0 0 278 0

Run native and test. And yeah, I agree it's too much. Rather take 2 points of damage away from all bows above khergit.

Hey, relax guys, we just gotta arch all of our shots to the moon to shoot any real distance, and that will be easy to shoot cav down with! Horse Archer hunting will be a breeze!

I am so glad I am going 9PD with my next build. I look forward to seeing just how much chaos I can create with the new arcing shots.

Good news is that indirect fire will be viable though, lulz. Medieval Mortar teams here we go!

I used to have fun with the light crossbow. Hide sowhere, point into the sky and shoot. I once actually headshotted a tincan with that.

Offline MadJackMcMad

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Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2011, 07:24:24 pm »
+2
Only time will tell of how the new patch will work. *shrugs*
Regardless, my Main will be an Archer till the day I die, regardless of any buffs or nerfs, and I shall use the Warbow until I die too...

Which will be soon and frequent if this goes through.
ABSURDITY, n. A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion.

Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2011, 07:25:44 pm »
+1
Which will be soon and frequent if when this goes through.

Then I shall be dying frequently but with great stubbornness. :/
I'm not normal and I don't pretend so, my approach is pretty much a bomb crescendo.
Death is a fun way to pass the time though, several little bullets moving in staccato.
The terror of my reign will live on in infamy, singing when they die like a dead man's symphony.

Offline MadJackMcMad

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Re: Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2011, 07:34:52 pm »
+2
The greatest issue I foresee is similar to the issue with xbows and rain.  Selective Realism.  I will happily believe that the new speed is more 'realistic'  however, it is a realism that has to contend with antagonistic forces which are arcade in nature, and therefore, have a distinct advantage.  The unrealistic shot speed compensates against an avatar's 'arcade' freedom of movement.  Heavily armed and armoured soldiers did not have the ability to ignore momentum and change direction in the blink of an eye.  Consequently, with this change, although an archer may fire more realistically, his ability to score hits will be unrealistically low.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 07:38:48 pm by MadJackMcMad »
ABSURDITY, n. A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion.