Maces vs Picks Ideology

[Erzengel]

OP says the +3 version will have 1.5 weight

Doesn't change anything. Reducing the weight by 1.0 will make it the worst Mace by far.

[Phew]

It's hard to differentiate between pierce/blunt weapons because the soak/reduce formulas cause pierce and blunt do roughly the same damage at all armor values, so knockdown is really the only difference. Thus, I think the strategy of making maces/hammers slow+knockdown and picks be faster is the way to go.

Therefore, I think San's suggestion to make the Spathovaklion -1kg is a great idea, because it's too fast to be knocking people down 10+% of the time. This would also make the Iberian Mace relevant again. Also, nerfing the Warhammer speed is good too, because right now it makes all the picks obsolete.

However, making the picks +1 speed/-1 dmg will still leave them a bit underpowered compared to maces. Actually the main thing that hurts the popularity of picks is that with a Side Sword or similar you can do 30p from 1.5m+, why go into kick range to do slightly more damage with a pick? 1h stab stats are still too high for such a nice animation; the Side Sword is basically a 1h Esotec. Rather than nerf the 1h stab animation to be a slow+glancy POS again, just tone down the stab dmg on 1h swords. Then people will start using picks again.

[karasu]

Taking into account how retarded the speed bonus works in this game, I'm not sure I wanna see a pierce weapon even faster, even if reducing the damage a bit, with speed bonus I believe the output would be even bigger.

[kinngrimm]

pierce against heavy armor to medium armor
cut against light armor to medium.
blunt could be the jack of all trades, making it effective against all armor classes,

but in that case then there would be a need to slow down blunt weapons in average "drasticly"(2-3 points). Instead giving them a few more dmg points. If they hit, they hit hard!

@Thomek, it is because of 2h/pole agi players, that i developed my build into what it is today, you know that  . While back then when i was still str based everyone told me it is not a viable option to play agi shielder. I guess we all know better now. Btw you forgot to mention, buff Katana

Also while i see blunt due to knockdown as preferable to pierce at any time, due to my specific playstyle i choose pierce for now. Lads you shouldnt make the mistake to think pierce is worse, only because a few players like me use it, with a little tweaking these players can switch pretty quick to blunt without a problem and if the advantages continue to outway those of pierce ... me getting free hits additionally through knockdown .. i guess that would finally bring me into the 70 kills region, noone but me would want to see that happening 

EDIT: San did you revisited the patchnotes, when the armor soacking behaviour was changed the first time and how the weapons had been adjusted because of that?

[Kafein]

Have you ever met Kinngrimm?

Have you ever met Sinisstra ?

[WITCHCRAFT]

Adding more differentiation to maces and picks is a good idea. Spathovaklion model looks like it should weigh less, and balance-wise most would agree it could use a nerf like that. I support that change 100%.

The warhammer is strange though. Unlike all the other maces, it has a thrust and much shorter length. Since it's not just "a better and more expensive winged/iron/iberian mace" maybe it shouldn't be directly aligned with the balance of other maces. I never really use it though, so maybe the difference isn't that great.

[San]

My warhammer experience is from using a +0 one the last 6 months as a sidearm and great performance when using one in strat. I think it's on the threshold and that having a stab means I think it should compensate a bit more. The biggest eye-opener for me is that it has even more weight than most of the other options, so it knockdowns noticeably more often. That and the previously useless stab showing some use in certain situations, I felt it was odd to completely ignore it. Sucks that for 1h, 1 point change in anything changes it a lot, but I suppose it can just keep the same stats.

Will have to get to the rest a bit later, nice to see some discussion on this.

[Phew]

My warhammer experience is from using a +0 one the last 6 months as a sidearm and great performance when using one in strat. I think it's on the threshold and that having a stab means I think it should compensate a bit more. The biggest eye-opener for me is that it has even more weight than most of the other options, so it knockdowns noticeably more often. That and the previously useless stab showing some use in certain situations, I felt it was odd to completely ignore it. Sucks that for 1h, 1 point change in anything changes it a lot, but I suppose it can just keep the same stats.

Will have to get to the rest a bit later, nice to see some discussion on this.

Whenever I use Penitent's +3 Warhammer, I alternate between two feelings about it:
1. "This weapon is Mjollnir incarnate, no skulls are safe from its devastation!"-when fighting people that don't attempt kicks
2. "This weapon is a festering pile of garbage!"->::GTX::-when fighting anyone that knows how to press their kick button

Tone down the kick (if cmp can't fix the stupid arc and duration, at least make the timer longer than 2s and make more nudges counter it or something), then slow down the warhammer.

[Xeen]

I don't disagree with the rationale.  But I have to say that I seriously don't see hardly any of these weapons as it is.  Nerfing them is just going to ever so slightly make them even more rare compared to the absolute infestation of 1h swords.

[Nightmare798]

Pick internal balance: I believe the progression makes sense. Outside of the pickaxe, they get progressively stronger, shorter, and more dense. A little boring, but I believe that it works out. The fighting pick and military sickle have great secondary modes, but I think they are still a tad weak. Like the military hammer, the fighting pick receives some large penalties for reaching the extremes of the class' length, but I think it could at least have 98 speed.

WHAT??? If they are going to make Fighting pick 98 speed, they might as well can make all 1H swords 100+ speed.