Rework axes (some general proposals)

[Jarlek]

Just like to say, that in medieval Europe, the axe became nearly extinct as a weapon. Swords were the choice of the noble and knight class. Then obviously the "professional armies" that became more frequent used swords, maces and the such.

Based off that, the reason why axes are "inferior" to the other weapon classes is because they weren't continued through medieval technology. What I mean by this is that the nobles continued having stronger and harder steel for their blades, maces became smaller while staying the same weight, which made them a more attractive weapon. The point is, axes fell out of use BECAUSE they filled such a niche cap.

Think as a noble, why arm yourself with an axe when you can carry a high quality longsword, which is quicker? The answer would be to bash plate in, however, halfswording and maces are more effective (historically) against plate armours than axes.
Within the freeman/peasant classes, axes were unpopular to arm your soldiers with as they require a LOT more skill to use than say a mace. Imagine trying to always make the blade edge of the axe land rather than any area of a mace.

Personally, I'm happy with axes. They have a high cut, bonus vs shields, GREAT for small spaces. And for me, they fit historically too. I take axes when I'm low level/low on money but still want to dish out damage.

Hallberds, Poleaxes, Bardiches and voulges. Seems to me the axes evolved just fine as milita/guard level equipment.

[zagibu]

(sorry to double post)

Then make it a hybrid cut/blunt instead of cut/pierce 

That's actually not a bad suggestion. But not possible in cRPG, I fear.

[Commodore_Axephante]

That's actually not a bad suggestion. But not possible in cRPG, I fear.

I don't know, Paul seems to talk about it like it could be done relatively simply, though he is referencing Pierce here instead of blunt:

...A quick-and-easy solution would be to give axes a flag that makes them use the arithmetic mean of cut and pierce soak/reduce armor parameters in damage calc....

Side note, did a little math here (not my strong suit so feel free to tell me if I botched it), and as far as I can tell according to the armor soak values presented on the Game Mechanics Megathread (the first, lesser set, as there are two conflicting sets of stats), the Bar Mace will almost ALWAYS do more damage than the great-axe (while only having 2 less speed, and being cheaper, AND having knockdown.)

Bar Mace does 35 blunt, the Great Axe does 46 Cut.

- At 15 armor cut is about 11% weaker than blunt (so the Great Axe effectively does 41 to the Bar Mace's 35 against 15 AC)
- At 30 armor cut is about 24% weaker than blunt (so the Great Axe effectively does 36 to the Bar Mace's 35 against 30 AC)
- At 45 armor cut is about 37% weaker than blunt (so the Great Axe effectively does 29 to the Bar Mace's 35 against 45 AC)
- At 60 armor cut is about 45% weaker than blunt (so the Great Axe effectively does 26 to the Bar Mace's 35 against 60 AC)
- At 75 armor cut is about 50% weaker than blunt (so the Great Axe effectively does 23 to the Bar Mace's 35 against 75 AC)

I distrust my arithmetic enough to assume I messed this up, but it seems like anyone with 30+ armor (which is practically everyone) has a much greater reason to fear the Bar Mace than the Great Axe, no?

[Phew]

Your math is flawed. Great Axe outdamages Bar Mace up to nearly 60 armor. Use this calculator:
http://infinitum.dyndns.org/crpg/calc.htm
And look at the average damage values. I think it assumes a .25 second hold.

In fact, your entire argument is backwards. With the current armor soak values, high cut damage weapons (such as axes) outdamage their blunt/pierce counterparts up to absurdly high armor levels. This means that pole/2h players have virtually no reason to use blunt/pierce weapons. However, low-medium cut damage (1h swords) is almost entirely soaked up by even loomed medium armor, so 1h users almost have to use blunt/pierce weapons to damage anyone. For instance, I have 57 armor body armor, and can survive 5-6 hits from most 1h swords. However, I routinely get 1-shot by 2h+pole axes/loomed greatswords.

High cut weapons are the way to go right now, and axes are king in this department. Don't complain, enjoy your OP-ness.

[CrazyCracka420]

Agreed with Phew, haven't done the math but have seen others (and from my experience) and weapons with secondary blunt or cut are typically not as useful as people think (like a 34c, 24p weapon is only useful for pierce if you're going against armor you'd glance on with the cut). 

[Commodore_Axephante]

Your math is flawed. Great Axe outdamages Bar Mace up to nearly 60 armor. Use this calculator:
http://infinitum.dyndns.org/crpg/calc.htm
And look at the average damage values. I think it assumes a .25 second hold.

In fact, your entire argument is backwards. With the current armor soak values, high cut damage weapons (such as axes) outdamage their blunt/pierce counterparts up to absurdly high armor levels. This means that pole/2h players have virtually no reason to use blunt/pierce weapons. However, low-medium cut damage (1h swords) is almost entirely soaked up by even loomed medium armor, so 1h users almost have to use blunt/pierce weapons to damage anyone. For instance, I have 57 armor body armor, and can survive 5-6 hits from most 1h swords. However, I routinely get 1-shot by 2h+pole axes/loomed greatswords.

High cut weapons are the way to go right now, and axes are king in this department. Don't complain, enjoy your OP-ness.

First off, not complaining, just playing game designer in my spare time.

I'm willing to accept that my math may be off, but I don't see how what you describe could be true, based on the info in the Mechanics thread... but oh well, if you're confident enough to stand behind it, I'll follow.

[Phew]

I'm willing to accept that my math may be off, but I don't see how what you describe could be true, based on the info in the Mechanics thread... but oh well, if you're confident enough to stand behind it, I'll follow.

Those "At x armor cut is about y% weaker than blunt" statements are assuming the same stated weapon damage; in reality, a Great Axe has 11 higher stated damage than a Bar Mace. They are also for 40 and 20 "raw" damage. I'm not sure about the definition of "raw", but I believe it includes Power Strike and wpf bonuses, and potentially even hold time bonus, speed bonus, and head strike bonus, if applicable. So the "raw" damage of a Great Axe is more like 100, not a mere 20 or 40.

As far as I know, that damage calculator I posted has the current soak/mitigation formulas, and assume a hold time of 0.25s.