x bow balancing

[Lt_Anders]

You know what, fine lets do that. But make 2hs have 9000 length then all is good.

Yes, lets do that. Give all the 2h players a weapon that is more or less useless on every single map.

I hope you get my point. Please use your brain when you come up with an idea.

Anyways, concerning xbows. If you want to do something like that for bows, then make a 50 point gap in melee prof give the person with 50 points lower 1 swing to the other guys 2. Or perhaps, an archer with only 100 points of wpf can only shoot 1 arrow per minute while someone with 150 gets to shoot 2 per minute.

Oh and why not make it so that with 0 prof in polearms, a cav player who decides to use a lance take forever to swing it, cause everyone knows, not having any training on swinging a weapon from horseback is bad at it there first time.

TL;DR: Dumb idea unless everything gets it.

[PieParadox]

Anyways, I apologize for my hasty, angry comment earlier, I was in a bad mood when I wrote it.

I'm not sure why you would oppose this idea Anders, as you're a horse crossbowman and it would not hurt you (rather it would protect you from 0 wpf crossbowers).

That said, I understand what you're saying Anders, but the biggest difference between melee with 0 wpf and using a crossbow with 0 wpf is that, by using a melee weapon with 0 wpf, your damage is lower (lower speed bonus), and it can be blocked easier. However, it is true that a melee weapon with 0 wpf can still be very, very deadly.

On the other hand, a crossbow is a ranged weapon, with almost no drawbacks to using it. So I can put all my points into 2h, even with the idea you guys suggest, then STILL use a crossbow, though it would be considerably slower. Still not many drawbacks other than the gold cost of it, while if a 2h with 0 wpf attempts to fight in melee, they will get crushed it they can only swing once for every two the enemy can.

My main point is, a crossbow is a ranged projectile. And it only takes two slots to carry. And it almost has no drawbacks.

[Lt_Anders]

That said, I understand what you're saying Anders, but the biggest difference between melee with 0 wpf and using a crossbow with 0 wpf is that, by using a melee weapon with 0 wpf, your damage is lower (lower speed bonus), and it can be blocked easier. However, it is true that a melee weapon with 0 wpf can still be very, very deadly.

WPF doesn't provide that large of a bonus. 120 wpf in melee is more than adequate to fight with a weapon. WPF provides a .15% increase in spead and damage per 100 wpf points.(something like that). And you can have 7 PS and a 0 wpf weapon and hit like a truck. Can't do that with xbows.

On the other hand, a crossbow is a ranged weapon, with almost no drawbacks to using it. So I can put all my points into 2h, even with the idea you guys suggest, then STILL use a crossbow, though it would be considerably slower. Still not many drawbacks other than the gold cost of it, while if a 2h with 0 wpf attempts to fight in melee, they will get crushed it they can only swing once for every two the enemy can.

They have no damage modifier, and LOSE damage over flight time. Bows and throwing do as well, but they have damage modifier. In fact, if you made xbows cut damage, you'd see how shitty they really are. The only reason people bitch is that they have high damage. Don't know if you've noticed though, but with the new xbow animations, from bolt to next accurate shot, it takes me .25-.5 seconds longer to reload even with the same wpf.  Also, carrying around a 0wpf xbow makes it break as much as the arrows (nearly) do as an archer. Considering the cost, all the ranged drawbacks the crossbow is much more balanced than you would think.

Also going to point this out:
[17:31] <@cmp> Archery   10142 06.73%
[17:31] <@cmp> Crossbow  4485  02.98%
[17:31] <@cmp> Throwing  3716  02.47%

Crossbow is only bitched on because when it hits, it hurts.
(Oh, and you ARE right this wouldn't bother me, but I find the logical fallacies disheartening. Clearly archers are balanced (I agree here) and they STILL kill more than double crossbow.)

[SoA_Sir_ODHarry]

nah xbow should get unusabel for chars which are not dedicated too it
like 2h not use a bow wit 0 or some wpf
wtf?
IMBA
peopel which use meele wit 0 wpf are blockabel x bows not unless u can dodge it
even u got all ur facts x bows just imba right now

greetz OD

[Lt_Anders]

nah xbow should get unusabel for chars which are not dedicated too it
like 2h not use a bow wit 0 or some wpf
wtf?
IMBA
peopel which use meele wit 0 wpf are blockabel x bows not unless u can dodge it
even u got all ur facts x bows just imba right now

greetz OD

First off, what class do you play? Second, this seems like real spur of the moment typing. English not main language?

So if xbows are unusable without wpf, then we must do the same with melee.
In this game, there's only three "items" that require skill investment. Shield, a non-combat skill; Riding, a conditional combat skill; Archery, a combat skill. All other items have a set(or sets) of weapons that can be used without skill point investment. Throwing, All melee, Shooting FROM horseback, Crossbow. Now admittedly, you put points into the other skills to get better stats and quickness, but you can use them without.

(Oh and melee can't use a bow, even with wpf, you need skill points.)

How bout, if you can't use an item without skill points, why not add an "Armor WPF" into the game so that you need that to be able to use full plate, in addition to strength requirements. (probably not such a bad idea, but meh) I'm just pointing out fallicies in the nerf xbows cause I die from them. Or as i saw somewhere else: Hi, I'm rock. Scissors is fine, Nerf paper.

Also the final thing, 2h is fine without 0 wpf cause you can block it? I think your thinking is off track there. Cause following that logic: Xbows are fine cause you can block with shield, therefore> get a shield, nub.

[Herkkutatti]

Realoding xbow takes something like 20-30 second  in crpg 5 sec D :


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VpsKrs1yww&feature=related

[Jarlek]

First off, what class do you play? Second, this seems like real spur of the moment typing. English not main language?

So if xbows are unusable without wpf, then we must do the same with melee.
In this game, there's only three "items" that require skill investment. Shield, a non-combat skill; Riding, a conditional combat skill; Archery, a combat skill. All other items have a set(or sets) of weapons that can be used without skill point investment. Throwing, All melee, Shooting FROM horseback, Crossbow. Now admittedly, you put points into the other skills to get better stats and quickness, but you can use them without.

(Oh and melee can't use a bow, even with wpf, you need skill points.)

How bout, if you can't use an item without skill points, why not add an "Armor WPF" into the game so that you need that to be able to use full plate, in addition to strength requirements. (probably not such a bad idea, but meh) I'm just pointing out fallicies in the nerf xbows cause I die from them. Or as i saw somewhere else: Hi, I'm rock. Scissors is fine, Nerf paper.

Also the final thing, 2h is fine without 0 wpf cause you can block it? I think your thinking is off track there. Cause following that logic: Xbows are fine cause you can block with shield, therefore> get a shield, nub.

I get what your saying Anders, his arguments are kinda "lolwut?"

So I'm gonna take what he said and make it a good and reasonable suggestion.

Here is his point:

nah xbow should get unusabel for chars which are not dedicated too it
-snip-

And here is me changing it:

Weapons should be difficult to use for chars which are not dedicated too it

Bolded part for my changes.

Melee weapons (sort of) already are because of the speed and damage (mainly speed) penalty for using them with low wpf. Personally I say this should be increased, but that's another discussion.

With xbows on the other hand the wpf isn't that important. It increases the reload speed and accuracy but it is still too fast and too accurate and most importantly, still as damaging(!) for 1 wpf users.

Does this mean we should nerf xbow accuracy and damage? NO, I say!

Let me quote myself:

Or as I said, decrease the speed when you got almost no wpf (less than 50 seems good) while keeping the speed the same for the different 100+ wpf. (150 now is the same as 150 then, 120 now is same as 120 then etc)

Basically make the wpf matter more. When you got beneath (for example) 50 wpf you will be as accurate as a 0 HA skill HA on a courser at full speed. When you get 50 wpf (the threshold for "I know not to hurt myself with this thing!") you should have the accuracy/reload speed that the 1 wpf crossbows have now. This should go on until you got 100 wpf (the "this is my weapon, I know it, although I'm not a master with it.) where it should be the same as now and after that it should remain the same (150 now is the same as 150 then, 125 now is the same as 125 then etc.).

What would this mean?
It means that people who want to use the crossbow as a sidearm would need at LEAST 50 wpf in it.
People that are hybrids with a crossbow would not be affected (or affected that much if 80-99 wpf range)
Dedicated Crossbowmen would not change A BIT. (although they might get more credit because of all the annoying 1 wpf kids being gone).

Does this sound Within The Realm Of Reason?

Anders, other people? Points and opinions?

[Leshma]

I don't mind their accuracy, I don't mind their damage but please, for the love of god change reqs for Arbalest to 18 str...

[Lt_Anders]

@ zapper:
Have you used xbows with the new update?
With the new update, xbows now do exactly that. In addition, because of the update, you ready your shots half a second before you get closed accuracy, even at 120 wpf. If anything, the amount of time to shoot accurately was INCREASED this patch, even with 120 wpf.

Otherwise, the only reason I'm arguing is that if you do it to one weapon to "balance" it, you have to do it to all others.

[Jarlek]

@ zapper:
Have you used xbows with the new update?
With the new update, xbows now do exactly that. In addition, because of the update, you ready your shots half a second before you get closed accuracy, even at 120 wpf. If anything, the amount of time to shoot accurately was INCREASED this patch, even with 120 wpf.

Otherwise, the only reason I'm arguing is that if you do it to one weapon to "balance" it, you have to do it to all others.

Yes, I have. I got an xbow alt which I really enjoy playing with. It's the fact that when I pick up and xbow with my main or any of my other alts, the reload speed is still too fast for a guy with 1 wpf. Not the arbalest, mind you, but the normal crossbow and light crossbow. Haven't tried the heavy, though.

[Lt_Anders]

Yes, I have. I got an xbow alt which I really enjoy playing with. It's the fact that when I pick up and xbow with my main or any of my other alts, the reload speed is still too fast for a guy with 1 wpf. Not the arbalest, mind you, but the normal crossbow and light crossbow. Haven't tried the heavy, though.

Well I only use a light. But on horseback the reload is the same as a heavy on foot. I wish HA increased reload speed.