shield nudge abusing more op than kicks in old times !!!

[Huscarlton_Banks]

Just a couple of notes before anyone gets the wrong idea:
1. I would be in favor of removing "phasing".
2. I would be in favor of making nudge -> swap forcing the character to use the swap animation. This includes all nudges, not just the neutral shield bash.

There's a lot of "broken animation" shenanigans just by using block/attack with enough WPF and a target with high enough ping, but I won't get into that.

I haven't been able to replicate any sort of nudge -> swap -> swing & hit while target is still stunned, but I've only tested a character with 177 1H WPF + +3 Wakizashi, and another character with 170 Polearm WPF + +3 Hafted Blade, maybe higher WPF or faster weapons are required. The closest thing I can think of for that is the old swashbuckler attack nudge stun + left swing, but that was removed a long time ago.

The phasing issue is something entirely different from a nudge stun being too long. If your swing connects slightly behind the target from the inside after they're done "phasing"/being stunned, it could be unblockable, but it'd also require that your target stands still after being nudged. Overheads/stabs from behind are much more reliable as a cheap strategy because newer players will hold a side block and turn, but against players like Kaoklai/Havelle/FarmerBob you'll probably get a worse success rate on hitting than just using well timed holds with a fast weapon, plus you'll incur unnecessary risks from whiffed nudges from anyone who takes advantage of circling. As someone who basically nudges constantly, it's much more useful as a tool vs a crowd than 1v1, unless it's against someone with perfect blocking reflexes but terrible armor.

A problem with phasing is that it just seems to be how WSE2 handles any form of "knockback". Whenever someone gets long-staggered from a projectile, kicked, or nudged by anything that has knockback, there's a window where everything (swings, horses, players) except projectile entities (throwing weapons, arrows, bolts) just passes straight through them. I'm sure most people have noticed a strange phenomena where you or a teammate bashes or shoves an enemy leaving them open to an attack, but somehow swings end up phasing straight through the enemy, and you or your teammate(s) end up tking each other instead.

I haven't seen the old "ballistic" form of nudging first-hand. Did it have the same phasing issues, or was it just removed because the launching looked too silly?

[Rico]

I haven't been able to replicate any sort of nudge -> swap -> swing & hit while target is still stunned, but I've only tested a character with 177 1H WPF + +3 Wakizashi, and another character with 170 Polearm WPF + +3 Hafted Blade, maybe higher WPF or faster weapons are required.

I have seen people doing that with balanced builds (reads: less wpf) and longswords (reads: lower speed), and I have a ping of ~19 to EU servers (reads: it's not ping related).

There must be some other way to do this, but I am not planning to exploit it anyways, so I don't need to find out. Still sharing my info in case it helps you guys.

[Huscarlton_Banks]

Sounds like it could be a hilt slash thing, I'm not too good at those.

It should be easy to pull off with a HBS/BS if someone wants to make a video and PM an active developer.

[Apsod]

The nudge trick Blindguy is talking about is possible to do with almost any weapon. (Hold attack to make them hold a block + sheath + unarmed attack nudge + unsheat + hit). I have even done it with a maul(87 speed). It can be countered by simply doing a normal nudge with any weapon (pressing v when not holding a block or attack) right after or right before being nudged by the person attempting to do the trick.

It is kinda like the kick, trying to make it happen all the time will end up with you getting hit yourself more often than the enemy, but if you wait and do it at the right time you can get a free hit. However getting used to it and knowing when you can use it without getting hit yourself takes a bit of time.

Another thing worth mentioning is that sometimes people are able to block it. It seems to happen if the person blocking blocks the same way after the nudge as they were before the nudge, which might explain why the trick does not work against shielders (They are always able to block it).

Lastly I would like to say that I think you should keep it in the game. The last two year or so dueling (Where this is being used most of the time) have become a bit stale, but this is a nice way to spice things up a bit again and offer something new to learn and master for the people who have already mastered everything else. I know it was never an intended feature, but nor was feinting and now its one of the core game mechanics.

[MURDERTRON]

an active developer.

Looks like we got ourselves a comedian

[Blackbow]

my bigest problem is not rly about phase shift but nudge cooldown who allow agishielder to spam it without having time to hit and this fucking nudge stun animation sometime too long....

i hope devs gonna look at it !!!

[Huscarlton_Banks]

@Apsod
I hadn't tried sheathing/unsheathing, or 2H much with swapping, but my left hand hurts just looking at that explanation. Is there some sort of weird animation thing that makes it different from just using a 1H, shove nudging, and swapping to 2H?

As far as blocking goes, if you can block it with a shield, you can definitely block it with a weapon (unless it's a projectile/couch). Nudges are just like kicks in that they bring your defend down so you may end up blocking in a different direction if you turned the wrong way during the stun, but I don't see anything in actions.txt that would indicate that shield blocks have different animation priorities from weapon blocks, even if they have differing animation lengths.

@MURDERTRON
If San/Tydeus have access and permission to modify the relevant scripts it basically makes them developers

San seems very active to me.

@blackbow
I don't really get it then, neutral nudges all have the same stun time.

Code: [Select]

Neutral nudge stuff

Note that the number next to script_crpg_rabbit_play_anim doesn't directly correlate to stun length, it's just a reference to an animation.

1H NO SHIELD
(call_script, "script_crpg_rabbit_play_anim", 9, ":nudgeable_agent_id", 1)      //knockdown on kicker

1H NO SHIELD, 2H, POLEARM
(call_script, "script_crpg_rabbit_play_anim", 24, ":nudgeable_agent_id", 0)      // Very short stagger, it hit someone who blocked
(call_script, "script_crpg_rabbit_play_anim", 25, ":nudgeable_agent_id", 0)      //Medium short stagger, it hit someone who was attacking
(call_script, "script_crpg_rabbit_play_anim", 12, ":nudgeable_agent_id", 0),      //Short stagger, it hit someone who was not attacking, blocking, or nudging. Applies to kicking agents if not 1h/no shield

SHIELDER

(call_script, "script_crpg_rabbit_play_anim", 24, ":nudgeable_agent_id", 0)      // Very short stagger, it hit someone who blocked
(call_script, "script_crpg_rabbit_play_anim", 25, ":nudgeable_agent_id", 0)      //Medium short stagger, it hit someone who was attacking
(call_script, "script_crpg_rabbit_play_anim", 12, ":nudgeable_agent_id", 0),      //Short stagger, it hit someone who was not attacking, blocking, or nudging. Applies to kicking agents if not 1h/no shield

Shield neutral nudges are only different because:
They cause phasing (good for multiple enemies, bad for assisting besides using it to pincer attack because tw/tk risks)
They damage people in cloth armor (1h attack nudge is better for this)
You have a shield, blocking is easier.

If phasing isn't your issue then 1H swashbuckler neutral nudges are blatantly better for anyone who can block because it can knockdown kickers who are otherwise a giant pain in the ass for 1H users.

Pole/2h neutral nudges are better for assisting, but they generally have enough length advantage to make retracted leg kick stuns a viable option.

Shieldless 1H(except against attacking players, if they don't have low STR)/Polearm users can pull off the same phasing with shoves.

Are you using cloth/no armor + running into people who are just blocking, nudging, and running away to troll you via chip damage or something?

[San]

Once I learn how to create a crpg server with test code, then I'd be willing to risk changing stuff

[Blackbow]

(click to show/hide)

@Apsod
I hadn't tried sheathing/unsheathing, or 2H much with swapping, but my left hand hurts just looking at that explanation. Is there some sort of weird animation thing that makes it different from just using a 1H, shove nudging, and swapping to 2H?

As far as blocking goes, if you can block it with a shield, you can definitely block it with a weapon (unless it's a projectile/couch). Nudges are just like kicks in that they bring your defend down so you may end up blocking in a different direction if you turned the wrong way during the stun, but I don't see anything in actions.txt that would indicate that shield blocks have different animation priorities from weapon blocks, even if they have differing animation lengths.

@MURDERTRON
If San/Tydeus have access and permission to modify the relevant scripts it basically makes them developers

San seems very active to me.

@blackbow
I don't really get it then, neutral nudges all have the same stun time.

(click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

Neutral nudge stuff

Note that the number next to script_crpg_rabbit_play_anim doesn't directly correlate to stun length, it's just a reference to an animation.

1H NO SHIELD
(call_script, "script_crpg_rabbit_play_anim", 9, ":nudgeable_agent_id", 1)      //knockdown on kicker

1H NO SHIELD, 2H, POLEARM
(call_script, "script_crpg_rabbit_play_anim", 24, ":nudgeable_agent_id", 0)      // Very short stagger, it hit someone who blocked
(call_script, "script_crpg_rabbit_play_anim", 25, ":nudgeable_agent_id", 0)      //Medium short stagger, it hit someone who was attacking
(call_script, "script_crpg_rabbit_play_anim", 12, ":nudgeable_agent_id", 0),      //Short stagger, it hit someone who was not attacking, blocking, or nudging. Applies to kicking agents if not 1h/no shield

SHIELDER

(call_script, "script_crpg_rabbit_play_anim", 24, ":nudgeable_agent_id", 0)      // Very short stagger, it hit someone who blocked
(call_script, "script_crpg_rabbit_play_anim", 25, ":nudgeable_agent_id", 0)      //Medium short stagger, it hit someone who was attacking
(call_script, "script_crpg_rabbit_play_anim", 12, ":nudgeable_agent_id", 0),      //Short stagger, it hit someone who was not attacking, blocking, or nudging. Applies to kicking agents if not 1h/no shield

Shield neutral nudges are only different because:
They cause phasing (good for multiple enemies, bad for assisting besides using it to pincer attack because tw/tk risks)
They damage people in cloth armor (1h attack nudge is better for this)
You have a shield, blocking is easier.

If phasing isn't your issue then 1H swashbuckler neutral nudges are blatantly better for anyone who can block because it can knockdown kickers who are otherwise a giant pain in the ass for 1H users.

Pole/2h neutral nudges are better for assisting, but they generally have enough length advantage to make retracted leg kick stuns a viable option.

Shieldless 1H(except against attacking players, if they don't have low STR)/Polearm users can pull off the same phasing with shoves.

Are you using cloth/no armor + running into people who are just blocking, nudging, and running away to troll you via chip damage or something?

so i will try to explain better and step by step, this is not happening all the times but when i made this thread someone made it 3 times consecutivly. ( i just remember it was a guy from eques clan)

so i was on my 2 hander (18/21) lvl29 or 30 with mw miaodao wearing gotland armor (17 weight)
the shielder came and swinged me
i blocked
he sticked to me then he did neutral nudge
then swinged my face (when i'm still in nudge animation)
and he repeated that 2 times, i was perma stun impossible to do anything.
i was like wtf is this , i remember someone who saw it and said in chat:
"those nudge are more op than kicks in old times..."

i also have a 36 archer hybrid (18/24, 8ath...)i play generaly with light armor (heavy aketon)
i have 76 in 2h, play generaly with hbs or great axe or miaodao
and it's happen too and rly often (not 3 times consicutivly but ... )
when i face to this kind of guy (agi shielder i guess) they just roll on me flooding nudge then swing then nudge ...
it's like one nudge on three is stunning me a bit more longer and i get slashed without having any possibility to block.

maybe the nudge is a bit longer because some latency ?
anyway i rly think the cooldown it's rly too short when they have time to chain nudge + swing + nudge + swing + nudge ...
and it should be back like it was before, 1 or 2 seconde was needed (maybe more) before been able to re nudge again.

we start to see more and more of shielders abusing of this neutral nudge.
you generaly have time to block after it (not always) but they gonna spam it and you have no time to do anything else than just blocking after each nudge...
it's rly op seriously

i dont know how to explain better with my shit english skills, i will try to record that on video but that's not gonna be easy

anyway thx for taking a look at it

[Algarn]

i will try to record that on video but that's not gonna be easy

Je peux t'aider à tester ça sur EU3 si tu veux.

[Apsod]

@Apsod
I hadn't tried sheathing/unsheathing, or 2H much with swapping, but my left hand hurts just looking at that explanation. Is there some sort of weird animation thing that makes it different from just using a 1H, shove nudging, and swapping to 2H?

As far as blocking goes, if you can block it with a shield, you can definitely block it with a weapon (unless it's a projectile/couch). Nudges are just like kicks in that they bring your defend down so you may end up blocking in a different direction if you turned the wrong way during the stun, but I don't see anything in actions.txt that would indicate that shield blocks have different animation priorities from weapon blocks, even if they have differing animation lengths.

I don't know if using a 1H and doing it and then switching to 2H or Pole would work, never tried that. One thing you should note is that I'm not talking about a shove nudge, but an unarmed attack nudge, which you can do when you have a punch ready and then press your nudge key.

About the blocking. The stun from the nudge makes you only able to block the same way you did before you were nudged. Since shields only have one blocking direction they can always block it. However weapons can only block the hit if the hit is comming from the same direction as they happend to have been blocking before being nudged.