Author Topic: Thatcher dead!  (Read 1670 times)

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Offline Leesin

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Re: Thatcher dead!
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2013, 04:51:30 pm »
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Sounds like bar-room politics to me.

Perhaps so, but for good reason, they are current political issues that really hit home with the average person, even those that are not much interested in politics. Take 3 for instance, at our current rate of immigration, combined with our native population reproducing, by 2020 Britain will be over populated, over population means higher unemployment rates, higher unemployment means more poverty, more poverty means more crime. Yet we sit back and let the EU dictate to us that we will let everyone in regardless, which points to number 5.

Number 4, Humans rights acts and the EU also, we have Abu Qatada, an extremist who we are being forced to house, feed and protect with our tax money because it would be "inhumane" to deport him to Jordan where he might face an "unfair trial" for his influence and plans in bomb attacks that were foiled. So our tax money is spent on this scumbag, ALOT of tax money, yet we have elderly people who can barely afford to live and keep their house warm. That is just one example of what pisses the average British person off.

Bar room politics perhaps, but it is bar room politics for a reason, they are the issues that really hit home with the average joe and have been going on for far too long.

Offline Casimir

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Re: Thatcher dead!
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2013, 05:07:47 pm »
+2
(conveniently ignore the many legitimate immigrants that move to the UK and work for a pittance doing jobs which are vacant because people would rather live on the dole)
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Offline Leesin

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Re: Thatcher dead!
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2013, 05:13:28 pm »
-1
(conveniently ignore the many legitimate immigrants that move to the UK and work for a pittance doing jobs which are vacant because people would rather live on the dole)


I have nothing against the immigrants that come here to work, and that is irrelevant to what i am talking about. over populating the country with immigrants is not going to fix the benefit culture, only make it worst as there really wont be any jobs left even for those that do want them.

Offline Casimir

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Re: Thatcher dead!
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2013, 05:16:07 pm »
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As stated the issue is with the benefit culture and the national work ethic (or more over lack of it) rather than immigration.  There are jobs out there, its a matter of whether people are willing to take them or not.
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Offline Lars

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Re: Thatcher dead!
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2013, 06:41:24 pm »
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I don't know much about Thatcher(almost nothing),  probably because i was too young or i wasn't even born, however  the first things that come to my mind about her  are :  the Falklands "war" and the anti-hooliganism policies/laws during her government, that almost completely eliminated violence around football stadiums.
Yesterday at the radio they said that Margaret  Thatcher was  Britain's prime minister for 11 years, I didn't even know she ruled for such a long time.

Could  anyone tell me please if the movie they made about her( it should be called "the iron lady" or something like that) is any good? 





Offline Leesin

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Re: Thatcher dead!
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2013, 06:44:12 pm »
+2
As stated the issue is with the benefit culture and the national work ethic (or more over lack of it) rather than immigration.  There are jobs out there, its a matter of whether people are willing to take them or not.

Again you are talking about something I am not, I am talking about over population, not the laziness of people/people not geting jobs which has been an issue long before immigration. Over population means that those that do really want to work are going to struggle alot more in actually obtaining a job even for a shit wage. Things are getting better right now where work is concerned, but  in 10 years if the current population growth and immigration continues, then people really will be fighting to earn a living again.

 The other issue with having way too many migrant workers is that they are actively taking a lot of money out of the system, many of them send large sums of money back to their home countries in saving accounts or to their families, taking money out of our already shitty economy. Many of the immigrant workers I know all have quite a few people living in one home, the rent doesn't cost them much when it's split between them all and they don't mind living on the bare minimum to survive because the money they are saving will allow them to buy a house outright in their home countries. Which means that wages stay low even for the native Britishe struggling here who will never be able to afford to buy a home here, in their own country.

I'm all for migrant workers from the EU, I work alongside some of them and most of them are hard working, but there has to be a cap on how many can work here at a time, a migrant work force if limited will help us build our economy back up, but an unlimited flow of them pouring into the country will only damage it in the long run.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 06:48:23 pm by Leesin »

Offline Molly

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Re: Thatcher dead!
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2013, 12:13:31 am »
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I dunno about any British numbers on immigration. Simpy don't...

...but I know about the German numbers.

The tricky part here is - and it's always forgotten, except by the real serious newspapers and articles - for those 100k coming in, there are always a lot of others leaving in the same timeframe.

I remember reading an article in the newspaper about it. Don't call me on the correctness of the numbers but the relation should be fine:

In 2010 100k immigrants came to Germany. In the same time 75k "people" left the country. So, overall the real growth is way smaller than the first number suggests.

Sure, this opens a lot of other issues. I am merely trying to point out that there is more to immigration than just the naked "incoming".
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Thatcher dead!
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2013, 03:56:17 am »
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Yeah, maybe thats true for some of the younger ones. But I donĀ“t get it why lecturers and profs are mostly left-minded.

Lecturers and intellectuals in general tend to be more progressive, and generally choose whatever political group is not conservative. Hard sciences have more of a liberal background, human sciences are closer to socialism.

Btw Leesin, what is so bad about the EU ? You know there is no european institution you didn't vote for, right ? They only seem distant because local medias never ever speak about what the union does except when it is crap, or perceived as such. In fact, there's no reason to be any more angry against europe than against your own national government, you don't have much more influence over that one.

Also the problem about immigration isn't people coming to "steal jobs". They buy other things with their salary and stimulate the economy, especially considering the fact that poor immigrant workers are willing to take crap jobs, and we direly need the educated ones (physicians for example) that literally flee their homeland. The problem is a flow of extremely poor people that need government help so much they make huge gaps in your budget. "The New Colossus" isn't just words, immigration is basically what built the USA during the 19th and 20th centuries. A notable difference with now being the relative absence of any kind of welfare, and the ten times worse misery in which some of the unluckiest immigrants were living.

Offline Tennenoth

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Re: Thatcher dead!
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2013, 06:35:13 am »
+1
An impressive career, although i disagree with the policies she enacted and the course she led society down.  Economic revitalisation and the expense of thousands of peoples jobs, homes and communities.  Its no surprise there was a lot of resentment to thatcher, i also don't think breeding 'new labour' is anything to be proud of.

Hindsight is of course 20:20, but tearing up the railways, closing the mines and the heavy industry in the UK were terrible decisions all made under her leadership.

Not targeting this entire post but I was told the mines were running out anyway? I thought that was the reason she didn't give into their strikes, when the strikes went on, the miners turned violent. Again, as I mentioned beforehand, not my first hand account, that is what my Grandfather has said. I take no responsibility! :wink:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/datablog/2013/apr/08/britain-changed-margaret-thatcher-charts

That seems quite informative for graphs etc for certain things, I don't know how accurate it is because its a newspaper writing it but it visualises some things nicely. To be honest, I don't know if the Guardian is for or against Thatcher but that seemed to show good points and bad points although I can't see how the life expectancy comes into play since medical advancements are usually the major driving factor for that.

The major ones I would say are the economy stimulation, the unemployment rates & the decline in manufacturing. My favourite one however is the pay-gap between men and women, I would have expected it to have shot drastically towards equal for women, but it only started in the latter years of her office and continued.

One thing about this whole debate has spurred me to look at the class system that Britain has today. I've learnt a lot actually and I am starting to understand how it is such a problem for some people. I always understood that I was bloody lucky to be in the position that I am in today, my parents are well off, they're still together, I'm at University, I'm employed (multiple at once too) and generally speaking my life has been damned easy, everything has been given to me, I've not had to fight for anything but reading up on the "classifications of people" I have really started to see how much of a divide there is, what the characterisations are and hilariously how my accent effects peoples views of me.

"Stealing British jobs" is just not something that happens these days and for my person views on it, the majority of the people who use it as an excuse are those who would much rather sit on benefits. I can understand the people who are actively looking for a job, those who want to get onto the market but I also believe that they are just using it to vent their frustration of having someone else picked over them, regardless of their ethnicity. I'm more than happy to have someone beat me out of a position if they are better than me, if I were the employer, I would pick the better person too, I'd be pissed off/disheartened but I can't resent them for that, it just means I have to improve. If you want to come over here and work and you want to work hard, then by all means, you're welcome, but if you want to live off our frankly ridiculous benefits system, then bugger off.
I'm a strong believer that benefits should be a last resort. If you're injured and need support, then its there when you need it, if you are out of work then its there if you need it. It shouldn't be a "oh, its okay, I'll use the benefits" situation and it certainly shouldn't be a trap. What I mean by that is that it shouldn't be economically better for you to stay on benefits than to work so you don't bother.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 06:57:52 am by Tennenoth »
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Offline FRANK_THE_TANK

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Re: Thatcher dead!
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2013, 08:05:22 am »
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I just wish she had died 9 days earlier so my uncle could have out lived the old bag!
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Offline Overdriven

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Re: Thatcher dead!
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2013, 08:23:52 am »
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Again you are talking about something I am not, I am talking about over population, not the laziness of people/people not geting jobs which has been an issue long before immigration. Over population means that those that do really want to work are going to struggle alot more in actually obtaining a job even for a shit wage. Things are getting better right now where work is concerned, but  in 10 years if the current population growth and immigration continues, then people really will be fighting to earn a living again.

 The other issue with having way too many migrant workers is that they are actively taking a lot of money out of the system, many of them send large sums of money back to their home countries in saving accounts or to their families, taking money out of our already shitty economy. Many of the immigrant workers I know all have quite a few people living in one home, the rent doesn't cost them much when it's split between them all and they don't mind living on the bare minimum to survive because the money they are saving will allow them to buy a house outright in their home countries. Which means that wages stay low even for the native Britishe struggling here who will never be able to afford to buy a home here, in their own country.

I'm all for migrant workers from the EU, I work alongside some of them and most of them are hard working, but there has to be a cap on how many can work here at a time, a migrant work force if limited will help us build our economy back up, but an unlimited flow of them pouring into the country will only damage it in the long run.

Yup I worked in a warehouse for 3 months with 80% Polish workers. The vast majority were planning to move back to Poland relatively soon. There was even one with a Philippine wife who was planning on buying a house out there. Most of them shared transport, housing, everything to save costs so they could move back to their own countries in a relatively short period and have earned a decent wage. I have nothing against them also as they were far more hard working than the majority of English people working in the same warehouse. I'd rather a way of forcing people on benefit back to work, even into crappy jobs, unless they have a very legitimate reason not to.

Fact is people complain about housing shortages/lack of money ect whilst typing on their fancy laptop, Ipad, Iphone, sitting infront of their big television with a house that is pretty much provided for them. Of course there are those with a legitimate struggle as well, but everything you hear about pre-Thatcher era related to state housing means outside toilet, no heating at all, working for a pittance and taking baths in front of the fire in a tin bath. I know this because my Dad lived in such accommodation. Fact is the every day standard of living for the vast majority of people is incredibly high compared to then.

Not targeting this entire post but I was told the mines were running out anyway? I thought that was the reason she didn't give into their strikes, when the strikes went on, the miners turned violent. Again, as I mentioned beforehand, not my first hand account, that is what my Grandfather has said. I take no responsibility! :wink:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/datablog/2013/apr/08/britain-changed-margaret-thatcher-charts

That seems quite informative for graphs etc for certain things, I don't know how accurate it is because its a newspaper writing it but it visualises some things nicely. To be honest, I don't know if the Guardian is for or against Thatcher but that seemed to show good points and bad points although I can't see how the life expectancy comes into play since medical advancements are usually the major driving factor for that.

The major ones I would say are the economy stimulation, the unemployment rates & the decline in manufacturing. My favourite one however is the pay-gap between men and women, I would have expected it to have shot drastically towards equal for women, but it only started in the latter years of her office and continued.

It was revealed afterwards that she offered Scargill the chance to see which mines were profitable and only close them afterwards if they aren't. Some mines definitely were profitable, but there were also a lot that weren't. Problem was that Scargill refused. Basically he was an utter twat and in all fairness the miners blame him just as much as Thatcher for what happened. He was to busy prattling on about socialism than actually caring for the welfare of those he was supposed to represent.

In terms of the equal pay for women, whilst Thatcher was a women, she notoriously hated feminists. So that doesn't really surprise me. Lots of feminists now would never pick her as a figurehead because they think her traits to manly (actually said this in some articles) which I find rather ironic.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 08:37:27 am by Overdriven »

Offline Molly

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Re: Thatcher dead!
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2013, 08:25:36 am »
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I just wish she had died 9 days earlier so my uncle could have out lived the old bag!
My sincere condolences to you and your family.
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