A Polearm and Two-Handed Weapon/Weapon Type Comparison

[oprah_winfrey]

I think it can all come down to the fact that 2h animations are clearly superior to polearm animations.  So when you compare weapon lengths, you have to include the animation lengths in them as well to come up with the true length of the weapons, do that for everything you're comparing and tell me that polearms are still more versatile than 2h (which they should be, but they are not when animations are taken into consideration).

Either way, these arguments are pointless, they are slowly going to be re-tweaking each weapon.

Yes, twohanders bonus length on attacks is longer, but the weapons are also shorter. Take a look at this chart I just made comparing popular weapons in the different types. You may notice a trend in weapon lengths.
 
   Weapon Length
Longsword   106
vs   
bec/war spear   120/150
   
barmace   96
vs   
Long Hafted Spiked Mace   138
   
Great bardiche   116
vs   
Great Long bardiche   155
   
Morningstar   82
vs   
bec   120
   
Danish Greatsword   124
vs   
Shortest poleaxe-glaive   131-160


EDIT: Somewhat fixed formatting.

[CrazyCracka420]

And the 2h's in that list are either faster, or deal more damage than their counterpart. 

[Zerran]

Just like to point out that because polearm left/right swing are so vastly different, positioning is a bigger problem for them. If a polearm user is in a situation where they HAVE to use left swing (wall/teammate/debri on their right side), they are at a massive disadvantage compared to if they can use their right swing. 2H L/R swings are only slightly different, so this isn't an issue for them.

Polearms, due to this and the fact that they glance more easily on objects, therefore have a much harder time fighting around objects than 2H.


Additionally, 2H sweetspot is much nicer on their swings, and as such they can (from my experience) deal damage both much earlier and much later in their animations than polearms can.


Now, maybe this is just me, but I have a much harder time judging the range on a 2Her as well. I can estimate pretty exactly when I'm inside or outside of a polearm user's range. With 2Hs I've died countless times because I thought I was out of their reach, just to get hit by the very tip of their swing/thrust.

[oprah_winfrey]

And the 2h's in that list are either faster, or deal more damage than their counterpart.

Ahh a change in argument, very clever. Damage and speed are pretty simular actually.

Longsword   36cut/23pierce   98 speed
vs      
bec   34 pierce/26pierce   93 speed
warspear   18 blunt/ 28 pierce   95 speed
      
barmace   35 blunt   92 speed
vs      
Long Hafted Spiked Mace   32 blunt/20 blunt   91 speed
      
Great bardiche   44 cut   89 speed
vs      
Great Long bardiche   46 cut/18 pierce   87 speed
      
Morningstar   38 pierce   92 speed
vs      
bec   34 pierce/26pierce   93 speed
      
Danish Greatsword   40 cut/24 pierce   92 speed
vs      
Shortest poleaxe-glaive   39-42 cut/22pierce-31 pierce   89-92 speed

The only real outlier is the war spear, which has low swing damage, but higher pierce damage.

@Zerran: I will give you the fact that the left swing sucks on polearms, and that is an advantage to 2h but you can generally avoid situations where you are forced to left swing.

In a vacuum, I would say that 2h have more fluid animations, but personally I think most players are so accustomed to their animations that they are pretty predictable compared to the GLB or glaive.

[Zerran]

@Zerran: I will give you the fact that the left swing sucks on polearms, and that is an advantage to 2h but you can generally avoid situations where you are forced to left swing.

That depends on the map, the number of people on, and what they decide to do. Maps that have a lot of ruins or buildings tend to be a real pain for polearms (or just any siege map). It can also make it more difficult to fight with a squad, if the polearm user ends up on the left flank.

Not something that's going to pop up in every fight, sure, but it does happen fairly regularly.

I don't think the animations should be changed per se, but the stats should be balanced around them a bit. What would be really nice is if they could do something like buff the speed/damage/sweetspot on the leftswing to make it balanced with the right swing, making the two swings more situational.

[CrazyCracka420]

hey I did change the parameters of my argument, but it wasn't said in a vacuum, it was in relation to the weapons you choose to use.

Yes, the polearms are longer (typically) and but they are either weaker or slower than the 2h in almost every comparison. 

So I still don't think polearms are necessarily more "versatile", they are just more support type of weapons, and it all comes down to how you use it.  I still think 2h's are better given their animations' length, and the speed/damage they put out.

[Leshma]

Greatsword, combined with high level agi build can counter everything, from lancers to archers.

[oprah_winfrey]

hey I did change the parameters of my argument, but it wasn't said in a vacuum, it was in relation to the weapons you choose to use.

Yes, the polearms are longer (typically) and but they are either weaker or slower than the 2h in almost every comparison. 

So I still don't think polearms are necessarily more "versatile", they are just more support type of weapons, and it all comes down to how you use it.  I still think 2h's are better given their animations' length, and the speed/damage they put out.

I chose a list of the common twohanders that gave a pretty good spread of their weapons suite. short and fast, knockdown, shield breaker, pierce, and a greatsword. I picked polearms that are pretty commonly used that matched those categories. Although on second though I should have also had the long hafted blade on the greatsword comparison. But as the stats show, they are pretty much the same. Some are slower or deal less damage, but some of them are faster or deal more damage. Plus some of the poles are longer as well, even after figuring in the bonus to length through animations.

[Phew]

Additionally, 2H sweetspot is much nicer on their swings, and as such they can (from my experience) deal damage both much earlier and much later in their animations than polearms can.

Forget the weapon stats; those are irrelevant to the discussion of 2h vs pole vs 1h balance. It's all about the above; a 2-her has a 270 degree "sweet spot" at all times. Every attack direction for 2h is pretty much suitable for any situation.

Compare that to pole and 1h, where most of the attack directions have some major limitation (1h right swing is slow and has a tiny "sweet spot", polearm left swing is similarly sucky, 1h thrust has an unpredictable hitbox and is likely to glance, pole overhead has more reach behind you to hit walls/teammates that in front of you to hit enemies, etc).

Playing pole and 1h is all about trying to mitigate your weaknesses through footwork. 2h has no drawbacks to any of its swing directions (besides overhead turn rate limit, which applies to everyone anyway), so every option is available at all times, no matter your positioning relative to your opponent. This is why 2h is by far the most popular weapon type.

[Tydeus]

I think it can all come down to the fact that 2h animations are clearly superior to polearm animations.  So when you compare weapon lengths, you have to include the animation lengths in them as well to come up with the true length of the weapons, do that for everything you're comparing and tell me that polearms are still more versatile than 2h (which they should be, but they are not when animations are taken into consideration).

Either way, these arguments are pointless, they are slowly going to be re-tweaking each weapon.

For faster, quad/tri direction weapons, polearms have a significant range advantage, as stated in my paragraph explaining the numbers. 106 length compared to 135 means that even after you take into account left/right swings, the polearms are still longer, it's only on thrusts where the polearms aren't being used in 1h mode, that 2hers have any range advantage. You shouldn't have to ask yourself here whether or not a range advantage on 1 swing direction is better than three. Clearly polearms have an advantage in length for these weapons.For the "slow" weapon comparison, it's slightly different. So close in fact, that I would say they're practically identical aside from thrusts.

In every paragraph written I assumed "effective" weapon lengths were taken into account. Trying to make an actual comparison while not doing so, would be pointless. For all averages though, I had to leave the lengths based upon their weapon stats. Having a single average based on all swings, especially when many weapons only have three directions instead of four, would make the numbers somewhat abstract. You have to keep in mind though, that every swing has some amount of variance to its length, so while any current numbers we have for animation lengths could put a weapon at +5 to 10 range over the next, that doesn't mean that the longer weapon will outreach the shorter 100% of the time. This isn't even taking into account footwork or positioning though, which has an even greater affect on weapon "reach".

I suspect that any numbers we have for the effective length of swings, and I mean specifically that, are utterly wrong. Take for example the polearm left swing. The swing arc makes it so that at about 110-120 degrees the length of a war spear would only have a minor length advantage over even a short weapon such as the Heavy Bastard Sword, yet at about 70 degrees (later into the swing), the war spear has about 50% longer reach than the HBS (The tip of your weapon does not move in a perfect circle, nor does the arc it creates, revolve around the center of the player). How do you account for this? Has anyone done such an in depth test of weapon animation lengths? I find it doubtful. The only animation length statistics I find usable are those of thrusts, as here the weapon travels along a straight line.

[oprah_winfrey]

Tydeus: Do you think the +80 bonus on thrusts for two handers is accurate? IIRC when the test that everyone quotes was done, the thrust animation was longer but slower. I haven't heard or seen any tests since they changed that animation however many months ago. If I had to guess I would say its about +40 maybe +50 tops.

[Tydeus]

Tydeus: Do you think the +80 bonus on thrusts for two handers is accurate? IIRC when the test that everyone quotes was done, the thrust animation was longer but slower. I haven't heard or seen any tests since they changed that animation however many months ago. If I had to guess I would say its about +40 maybe +50 tops.

The +80 was for the previous animation and currently we're using the native thrust animation, which I believe is +71 length.