Dedicated Crossbowmen - where have they gone?

[Heroin]

Rather than increasing the reload speed or damage I think I would rather see the actual projectile speed increased so it gets to the target a bit quicker.

I suspect that if they did this, the damage issues would fix themselves. I think that they lowered the projectile speed so much that the bolt begins to lose damage immediately upon being fired. This is just a suspicion, and is not confirmed. Although, if I shoot someone at point blank, it seems to do far more than if I shoot them just across the length of two horses.

[bruce]

Actually, the accuracy stat is on the other hand counterbalanced with weapon damage. The more damaging a ranged weapon is, the less accurate. These are native, hardcoded mechanics. Hunting with its 40 or whatever damage with 94 acc would be probably closed reticule.

That said, 145 wpf doesn't do the sniper crossbow justice. You need more wpf by design to achieve the same sort of accuracy lower end crossbows have with less wpf.

The sniper is basically for pure crossbowmen. And it has it's upsides. Try shooting at further ranges with a regular, it's quite futile. Even heavy struggles at proper ranged shooting. The damage increase over heavy and especially regular is significant.

A few general observations:
- all ranged weapons start losing damage after they're fired
- the slower the projectile speed of a ranged weapon, the more speed bonus you get from the target's speed
- the slower the projectile speed of a ranged weapon, the more damage they will lose over the same distance

Myself, I use a (once heirloomed) heavy crossbow because I've got a hybrid char, and it's still got the range of a ranged weapon and solid damage. I can sometimes oneshot lancers and especially HAs if they are moving towards me, etc, due to speed bonus. If I went for a pure crossbow, then (heirloomed) sniper would be my choice probably.

[Dravic]

Rather than increasing the reload speed or damage I think I would rather see the actual projectile speed increased so it gets to the target a bit quicker.

This!

[Tai Feng]

Seriously, xbows are fine. If other weapons are too strong then they need to be nerfed, not the other way around.

[bruce]

Bolt speed is fine. It is tricky to aim for moving targets at distance, it'd be OP if it wasn't.

Want better bolt speed? One good reason to get a sniper.

[Endorphine]

Well, don't you know that ranged combat is "a my old friendgy and cowardly style of fighting" and has no place in Mount & Crybabbies?

+1

Throwing spam is quite alright though since it's just takes one slot and is available to 2h agi/str builds which is the least "my old friendgy and cowardly style of fighting".

Most noble art of playing is dual spammage of jarids and long maul!

[bruce]

Crossbowmen (and archers too, really), are ranged troops which can do support, play tactically, score kills at distance, etc, and when melee closes in you're only somewhat less powerful then a normal infantryman.

What downsides you have - some less wpf (which isn't really a deciding factor in fights),  some less skillpoints (none in case of crossbowman), and some less armour which is generally as protective as papermache in melee anyway, unless you wear plate in which case it's not too hard to outmaneuver you. I liked playing with both a hybrid archer and a hybrid crossbowman much better then with a melee with shield. You can't shoot someone on a roof with a shield, and they damn well can hit you in the flanks.

And using a crossbow promotes "safer" play - hang in the back rows and shoot a bit, try to down horses, friendly archers and other important targets, then when melee closes in, hopefully the 5+ monkeys spamming twoshot/oneshot throwing crap will be dead by then or at least out of ammo.

[WaltF4]

Actually, the accuracy stat is on the other hand counterbalanced with weapon damage. The more damaging a ranged weapon is, the less accurate. These are native, hardcoded mechanics. Hunting with its 40 or whatever damage with 94 acc would be probably closed reticule.

Perhaps the accuracy statistic determines the minimum reticule size achievable. I seem to have reached a minimum reticule size for hunting crossbows a bit before 125 proficiency and for light crossbows with about 125 proficiency based on the change in slope for the reticule width versus crossbow proficiency data. Fasader has already stated that 138 proficiency was require for the maximum accuracy for the "simple" crossbow. I assume he was referring the "normal" crossbow, and there is indeed a change in slope for the reticule width versus crossbow proficiency for the normal crossbow between 125 and 145 proficiency.

That said, 145 wpf doesn't do the sniper crossbow justice. You need more wpf by design to achieve the same sort of accuracy lower end crossbows have with less wpf.

The sniper crossbow slightly surpasses the hunting and light crossbows in accuracy with 145 proficiency. The accuracy of the sniper crossbow would also surpass the normal crossbow if the slope of the reticule width versus crossbow proficiency for the sniper crossbows remains constant until around 175 proficiency, near the maximum feasible proficiency with with a 15 strength build at level 30, and the normal crossbow reticule width was indeed at a minimum with the aforementioned 138 proficiency. Given that the slopes of the reticule width versus crossbow proficiency is approximately equal for all crossbows, the minimum reticule width of the heavy crossbow would have to be reached with about 15 less proficiency than the minimum reticule width of the sniper crossbow for the sniper crossbow to ever be the most accurate crossbow.

Interestingly, this line of reasoning also implies that heirloom crossbows might require more crossbow proficiency to reach their maximum potential accuracy, which may be better, and their initial accuracy may be worse due to their increased damage.

[bruce]

Interestingly, this line of reasoning also implies that heirloom crossbows might require more crossbow proficiency to reach their maximum potential accuracy, which may be better, and their initial accuracy may be worse due to their increased damage.

First heirloom increases damage by 5% but does not increase the accuracy stat. From what I gather, this makes them less accurate at any wpf level less then the maximum wpf for a +1 heavy crossbow, which should be higher then a normal one, and both should be equally accurate at their wpf limits.

Second and third heirloom both increase the accuracy stat by one, what effect this has on the wpf required for maximum accuracy I really don't know. I think they are in the end more accurate at the same wpf then a normal heavy crossbow (and more accurate at their respective "max" wpf levels), but I can't be sure until I get to retire again and get my heavy crossbow to exceptional.

(practically, all heirloomed crossbows are more accurate for ranged shooting due to increased bolt speed over vanilla versions - it's not much, but every bit helps)

Perhaps the accuracy statistic determines the minimum reticule size achievable.

The haxors have put in limits after which your wpf does nothing anymore to prevent fully closed reticule crossbows, I think.

[Trael]

I actually tested and can confirm your suspicion.

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Thank you, thats awesome.
+ awesome points to you (since you seemed to have them on positive side, and they are named that way these days...)